M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

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Forum rules
All handloading data posted on Full-Bore UK from 23/2/2021 must reference the published pressure tested data it was sourced from, posts without such verification will be removed.
Any existing data without such a reference should be treated as suspect and not used.

Use reloading information posted here at your own risk. This forum (http://www.full-bore.co.uk) is not responsible for any property damage or personal injury as a consequence of using reloading data posted here, the information is individual members findings and observations only. Always verify the load data and be absolutely sure your firearm can handle the load, especially older ones. If in doubt start low and work your way up.
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WelshShooter
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M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#1 Post by WelshShooter »

I recently (October) bought an M1 Carbine in .30 carbine which I've had a great time shooting. I thought it was only fair to put a small review here of the rifle and some of the reloading that I've done.

The Rifle

Collectors and WWII aficionado's - prepared to be disappointed. The rifle I bought is not a true GI WWII M1 Carbine, but is instead an "IAI M888". This rifle was made sometime in the 90's in Texas, US by a company called "Israel Arms International". This company used surplus GI parts (unless the cost was too high, in which case commercial parts were used), barrels were newly manufactured and the receivers were cast. Some of the receivers were cast in Spain via subcontracting, and some were cast in Texas, as per my rifle. However, with this in mind, the rifle is still made on the M1 Carbine pattern and is identical to the M1 Carbine. It disassembles in exactly the same way and the parts are interchangeable.

The woodwork is in pretty good condition as this is a used rifle. A couple of dents here or there but nothing you'd complain about. The metal upper handguard/heatshield was standard on this model of rifle but was not often seen on the original M1 carbines. I think it looks pretty cool and definitely different!

The rear sight is very nice, it is not the "battle sight" with the flip up sight for two different settings but rather has notches for 100, 200, 250 and 300 yard notches. There is also built in windage adjustment in the rear sight as you can see in the picture. I believe that the windage knobs adjust windage by 1" per click at 100 yards.

The trigger is... heavy. I'm spoilt for choice with my Remington 700 and other modern rifles with fancy triggers. But I also shoot a Mauser and Lee Enfield and they still have nice triggers compared to this carbine. I haven't measured the trigger pull bit it is noticeably heavier than my Mauser, such that I noticed the front post moving away from the centre of the target as I squeeze the trigger. Time behind the trigger will sort this out.

The rifle action is just like a straight pull AR-15. Pull the charging handle back, then releasing it will chamber a round. Repeat after firing. I disassembled the rifle and you can easily see that the gas port has been welded shut. I cleaned out the metal and reapplied some grease so the rifle is nice and slick now. The bolt has a bolt stop feature which works quite nicely. The last picture shows a small button on the charging handle and there is also a small hole underneath the handle. When you retract the bolt and depress the button, the bolt is held in place just like the picture. I found that loading a mag with the bolt held in place this way will cause the first round to be pointing upwards too much, which will then not chamber when the bolt is released. This is due to the fact that the rear of the first cartridge is pushed down into the mag by the bolt, which is not held back far enough. If you let the bolt forward, insert mag, then load the first round you will not get any problems with feeding.

The magazines needed a bit of work. The feed lips were very sharp and were marking my brass (I intend to reload) and were cutting my fingers whilst loading the rounds. A quick polish with wet silicon carbide paper smoothed out the feedlips and still function great without marking my brass.

I bought the rifle from a local RFD for a very good price, which included a ten round magazine, two fifteen round magazines with mag pouch, and the rifle sling. The magazine pouch is designed to slip over the buttstock for easy access, however, I will probably buy another pouch as this one has a punched metal hole on the side that may mark the stock.

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_iai.html

The rifle with all items that came with the sale
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Rear sight showing windage adjustment, and the receiver showing it was made in Houston, Texas, USA.
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Front of receiver showing calibre as "CAL 30 ML": notice that this is ML not M1.
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Upper vented, metal handguard
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Receiver of M1 - note the button on the charging handle which keeps the bolt held open
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saddler
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Re: M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#2 Post by saddler »

Of my S1 self-loaders my M1 Carbine was the winner on grin factor.
Never used factory ammo, just reloads (Nobel powder, 110-gr FMJ, Lee Loader & plastic hammer)

Still got the brass & reloading kit.
(On loan to a S5 mate as he has an ex-Chindit issue example)
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bradaz11
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Re: M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#3 Post by bradaz11 »

I need one of these :( none seem to be for sale
When guns are outlawed, only Outlaws will have guns
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WelshShooter
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Re: M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#4 Post by WelshShooter »

Ammo

So, what am I feeding the M1 Carbine? Well, .30 carbine of course! I intend to shoot this rifle under two different conditions:
  • 1. Indoor 25m gallery range; and
    2. Full power loadings for whatever distance I try to use it for
So this will require two different loadings. The typical GI ball ammo was a 115gr jacketed round travelling at around 1,900fps. Obviously this is a no go for my gallery range. The range does not allow jacketed ammo as this damages the backstop and for a 115gr projectile I cannot exceed ~1,350 fps. For the second use, anything goes so I obviously intend to replicate the GI spec.

Gallery Loading

I have a choice of 115gr lead bullets at hand, as follows:
  • Ace 115gr Round Nose cast bullet (left);
    115gr Truncated Cone cast bullet (Dodgyrog) (middle); and
    115gr Round Nose cast bullet (Dodgyrog) (right)
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I only have 100 each of Dodgyrog's bullets so didn't want to waste them on load development as I had 1000 of the Ace bullets at hand. For my gallery loading I started with Bullseye powder. Probably not the best choice, but it worked. I had done some searching for loads and the best I could find in this calibre and powder was for a .30 carbine pistol that is used in America. I started at 3.0gr and loaded up to 4.5gr. Results as follows.

The first shooting (5 shots for each loading) was very promising. I noticed that when I was reaching a velocity over 1,200fps there was a definite crack in the shot, which made me think that my rounds were supersonic (I know speed of sound is ~340 ms-1 at sea level but didn't know what it was in foot...). The rear sight was set on 300 yards (max) and my POA was with a 6 o'clock hold. Distance was 25m and I shot from a bench off a sandbag. Accuracy was rather impressive! The 3.3gr grouping seemed very promising so I loaded up 50 more with this loading, which achieves an average velocity of 1,113fps. You'll notice that there is a lot of horizontal on this repeat grouping and I'm pretty sure it's due to that trigger as mentioned above! I till need to sped some more time shooting some rounds off!

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Here's a video of the rifle in action. I know I look miserable as sin, but I really was having a good time (I just don't show it). The grouping from this shoot is with 3.3gr bullseye and should be the last picture below.



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lasbrisas
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Re: M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#5 Post by lasbrisas »

Interesting seeing this as i have had mine for about 5 years and mainly shoot it indoors, I use the left hand bullet type in your picture, only because they are cheaper but we can use jacketed rounds in our indoor range. For info I use 5gr of N320 as it's a common powder for me which I also use in the .357 marlin. I also have it's bigger brother the M1 Garand, both give me a lot of pleasure.
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Re: M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#6 Post by WelshShooter »

Full Power Loads

This is the interesting part! I was able to source some 110gr RN coated bullets which were actually cheaper than lead bullets. I spoke with H&N, and along with their website load data was shown for Vihtavuori N110 powder. I have Reload Swiss RS30 and Hodgdon H110 powders which are perfect for this calibre and bullet. I have loading data for RS30 but wasn't sure if these coated bullets could exceed a certain velocity as per plated bullets. Confirmation from H&N confirmed that I can load these up just like normal bullets.

Now here's the learning curve. The loading I followed from Reload Swiss website was a minimum load of 14.0gr and a max loading of 14.5gr which should yield a velocity of 1,804fps - 1,886fps which is very close to the original GI load. I thought this was a good place to start so started to load a charge of 14.0gr into the case. I was a bit confused, because 14.0gr of powder left around 1mm-2mm of case empty. This can't be right? I have never loaded a case THIS full before. I perused the internet forums and this is normal for this calibre. I had some doubt in my mind so I thought I would load a little bit lower - I don't have to worry about cycling the action so that should be fine. I started loading at 13.2gr and increased in increments of 0.2gr up to and including 14.0gr. Even with 13.2gr of powder the powder was nearing the top of the case. I loaded them up anyway. I noticed that around 13.6gr the powder was starting to compress and you could feel this resistance in the seating operation and the bullets were getting marked by the seating stem. Overall length was to magazine length, around 1.680". I loaded 10 bullets at each powder charge mass.

I took these to the local 100m range to have some fun! I had my MagnetoSpeed sporter chronograph which fit nicely onto the barrel of the rifle (note: I used this for my gallery loading too). I put my rear sight on 100 yards and aimed centre of the shoot'n'see target. All my different groups were shot on the same target. The results were not as expected. The first load was near the bottom of the target and averaged a velocity of 1,777fps. Not bad, but definitely slow. The next loadings (13.4gr and 13.6gr) grouped in the same area and didn't really improve upon the average velocity. It started to get interesting at 13.8gr and 14.0gr! As the velocity was increasing, the bullets were impacting higher up the target towards my POA and you can see a sort of "triangle" group. With a load of 14.0gr the velocity averaged 1,836fps which is in the ballpark of the published load data by Reload Swiss. This has given me the confidence to continue loading up to 14.5gr knowing that the velocity wasn't doing anything wild. I have no idea why some bullets went all over the target but only have myself to blame!

It was oddly quiet too. With earmuffs on and in an open enclosure it was very pleasant to shoot and is definitely quieter than all my other centrefire rifles. I had great fun shooting this and am looking forward to loading more and shooting more in the new year. I also have the Hodgdon H110 powder to try out.

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Re: M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#7 Post by WelshShooter »

bradaz11 wrote:I need one of these :( none seem to be for sale
Did you try ITL Shooting supplies? They have loads of info on their website, but at a starting price of £1.3k I lost my interest.
lasbrisas wrote:Interesting seeing this as i have had mine for about 5 years and mainly shoot it indoors, I use the left hand bullet type in your picture, only because they are cheaper but we can use jacketed rounds in our indoor range. For info I use 5gr of N320 as it's a common powder for me which I also use in the .357 marlin. I also have it's bigger brother the M1 Garand, both give me a lot of pleasure.
Very nice. I also shoot a Marlin .357 indoors and my go to powder is Ramshot True Blue with a 158gr lead bullet. I was interested in getting a Garrand a while back but I already have quite a few fullbore rifles. My local club (10 min drive) is the indoor club that I shoot at on weekday evenings and the fullbore clubs I go to are >30min drive which I can only use on the weekend, so I really fancied a rifle I could shoot on all ranges and the .30 carbine fit the bill just nicely!
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Re: M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#8 Post by mag41uk »

ITL haven't got any as a mate recently inquired.
They are having some made in the US apparently.
Several guys at my club have these and they all shoot pretty well.
Most of them use 2400 and Frontier plated bullets.
A couple of them have shot them in Lera`s Enfield Challenge comp which is ETR targets at 100/200/300.
I think the original powder used was Winchester 296. I believe this powder was developed especially for this cartridge.
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Re: M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#9 Post by WelshShooter »

mag41uk wrote: I think the original powder used was Winchester 296. I believe this powder was developed especially for this cartridge.
Correct, and Hodgdon H110 is the same powder :good:
lasbrisas
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Re: M1 Carbine / .30 carbine Reloading

#10 Post by lasbrisas »

WelshShooter wrote:
bradaz11 wrote:I need one of these :( none seem to be for sale
Did you try ITL Shooting supplies? They have loads of info on their website, but at a starting price of £1.3k I lost my interest.
lasbrisas wrote:Interesting seeing this as i have had mine for about 5 years and mainly shoot it indoors, I use the left hand bullet type in your picture, only because they are cheaper but we can use jacketed rounds in our indoor range. For info I use 5gr of N320 as it's a common powder for me which I also use in the .357 marlin. I also have it's bigger brother the M1 Garand, both give me a lot of pleasure.
Very nice. I also shoot a Marlin .357 indoors and my go to powder is Ramshot True Blue with a 158gr lead bullet. I was interested in getting a Garrand a while back but I already have quite a few fullbore rifles. My local club (10 min drive) is the indoor club that I shoot at on weekday evenings and the fullbore clubs I go to are >30min drive which I can only use on the weekend, so I really fancied a rifle I could shoot on all ranges and the .30 carbine fit the bill just nicely!
The Garand is just so cool ! What else has the en bloc ping and I have been using Barnaul 30-06 ammo which has a really load boom and flame from the muzzle, gets everyone's attention on the firing line ! I changed out the stock for an original WW2 one and sling, changed the gas tube as the bayo lug had been ground and changed the trigger guard for an original, that was a bit tricky as I had to take the trigger assembly apart but youtube was my friend that day !
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