Does N570 smell markedly different to N165

[ColinR]

I have an opened 1 kg tub of N570 which was at the back of the cupboard and is dated 2006. I gave it a sniff and rather than the acetone type smell from the single base powders this stuff smells quite different, even musty. Given it is 11 years old I can't remember what it smelt like when I first opened it. Is it likely to have deteriorated to a point beyond use?

I just read in the Vithavouri Reloading Guide that deteriorating powder has 'an irritating acidic odour. (Don't confuse this with common solvent odours such as alcohol, ether, and acetone)' It is neither 'an irritating acidic odour' or one of solvent. If anything it smells of plastic, but that might just be the container.

[Alpha1]

Personely I would chuck it on the garden and forget about it.

[Chapuis]

Personely I would chuck it on the garden and forget about it.

Why?

11 Years is nothing if it has been stored correctly i.e. not exposed to extremes of temperature or damp. It used to be fairly common in the U.S. for ex military powders of 40 years or more to be sold and I have used old Nobel powder that is at least 25 years old with absolutely no issues at all.
I don't recall ever seeing a use by or best before date on powder canisters.

[ColinR]

Personely I would chuck it on the garden and forget about it.

Why?

11 Years is nothing if it has been stored correctly i.e. not exposed to extremes of temperature or damp. It used to be fairly common in the U.S. for ex military powders of 40 years or more to be sold and I have used old Nobel powder that is at least 25 years old with absolutely no issues at all.
I don't recall ever seeing a use by or best before date on powder canisters.

You are right, no 'Use by Date'. I also have a couple of unopened N560 dated November 2009. Basically I bought these N500 series powders when I started shooting a .338 LM but found N165 to work so well these N500 series powders somehow got forgotten. I was also a bit put off by stories of double based nitro glycerine powders burning the barrel throat even faster than single based in .338LM.

I did not think there would be much wrong with it as it has been stored in a cool dark cupboard all this time. It was just the difference in smell between the N570 and July 2015 N165 that raised the question. I am so used to the strong smell of solvent from Vihtavouri powders that I was surprised at its absence in the N570. Despite the container being closed the solvents have probably evaporated through the plastic container over time leaving what can best be described as a plastic smell - possibly a reaction of the plastic container and the solvents. As a matter of interest do powders become more or less volatile as they age?

As a belt and braces measure I have emailed Vihtavouri with the container batch numbers and date for their opinion.

[Alpha1]

Personely I would chuck it on the garden and forget about it.

Why?

11 Years is nothing if it has been stored correctly i.e. not exposed to extremes of temperature or damp. It used to be fairly common in the U.S. for ex military powders of 40 years or more to be sold and I have used old Nobel powder that is at least 25 years old with absolutely no issues at all.
I don't recall ever seeing a use by or best before date on powder canisters.

Because Im not that hard up that I need to worry about using a powder that is eleven years old. I would chuck it on the garden and forget about it. If I suddenly needed to use that grade of powder after eleven years I would go and buy a new tub.

[Dark Skies]

I AM that hard up and will gratefully receive any free tubs of propellant that people consider too old to be worth using.

Most of my Mossie and AK surplus rounds were squished together in the fifties and sixties and still reliably go 'bang' when required so I'm fine with using your young / old powders.

[Chapuis]

I AM that hard up and will gratefully receive any free tubs of propellant that people consider too old to be worth using.

Most of my Mossie and AK surplus rounds were squished together in the fifties and sixties and still reliably go 'bang' when required so I'm fine with using your young / old powders.

I'm in the same position Dark Skies and can't afford to waste £65 - £75 a Kilo to throw away perfectly good powder just because it has been on the shelf for more than a year or so.

I wonder do we really all know when the powder that we are using was actually made. Was it made only a few short months ago or was it produced many years ago and has only fairly recently been packaged by the "manufacturer"/distributor. Just look at the origins of IMR powders to see that. Also as we in the U.K. are at the very end of the queue just how long has that powder been held in the importers magazine.

Colin I wouldn't swear to it but I believe that on those rare occasions when powder does actually deteriorate it starts to break down into the separate elements and becomes totally inconsistent so parts of it could be less volatile and other parts far more volatile even possibly explosive rather than propellant.
I am however pretty confident that I know what the effects of moisture contamination are that usually result in squib loads as demonstrated far too often by the split necks on .17hmr rounds allowing moisture ingress.

[ColinR]

I AM that hard up and will gratefully receive any free tubs of propellant that people consider too old to be worth using.

Most of my Mossie and AK surplus rounds were squished together in the fifties and sixties and still reliably go 'bang' when required so I'm fine with using your young / old powders.

I'm in the same position Dark Skies and can't afford to waste £65 - £75 a Kilo to throw away perfectly good powder just because it has been on the shelf for more than a year or so.

I wonder do we really all know when the powder that we are using was actually made. Was it made only a few short months ago or was it produced many years ago and has only fairly recently been packaged by the "manufacturer"/distributor. Just look at the origins of IMR powders to see that. Also as we in the U.K. are at the very end of the queue just how long has that powder been held in the importers magazine.

Colin I wouldn't swear to it but I believe that on those rare occasions when powder does actually deteriorate it starts to break down into the separate elements and becomes totally inconsistent so parts of it could be less volatile and other parts far more volatile even possibly explosive rather than propellant.
I am however pretty confident that I know what the effects of moisture contamination are that usually result in squib loads as demonstrated far too often by the split necks on .17hmr rounds allowing moisture ingress.

I am more concerned with the safety element, so cost does take a back seat, but why would I chuck out perfectly good powder. If I was inclined in that direction I would not have requested this information. The reason I want to use it now after so long is with some 285 grain Hornadys that I was persuaded to try. With regards to manufacturing, Vihtavouri powders do at least have a supposed 'manufacturing date' a batch number and a canister fill number (individual numbered canisters from that batch) But as you say there is nothing to prove that is the date the stuff was actually made, but I suspect if the Finns put a date on something it is probably relevant. No other powders I possess have any indication of manufacture date, so one up to Vihtavouri,

Interesting what you say about .17HMR, the necks seem to split for a pastime. My ammunition is probably 4/5 years old now, but i wonder if any improvements have been made in that direction. Before you ask this ammunition is kept in a cool dry cabinet so unlikely to have been in contact with moisture while in my possession. I am having a lot of accuracy problems with my Ruger 17/77, but I am fairly certain it is down to a bedding problem that I will address when I have the time or inclination. I shoot rimfire so rarely these days. Thanks for your input.

[StanDeasy]

Double-base powders do have a different smell - and a much longer shelf life than single-base powders. With a date of 2006, it should still be perfectly OK.

[ColinR]

Double-base powders do have a different smell - and a much longer shelf life than single-base powders. With a date of 2006, it should still be perfectly OK.

That's good to know StanDeasy. I had a very prompt reply from Vihtavouri this morning confirming they had checked the batch numbers and confirmed it was OK to use. Even though I was not complaining, just asking their opinion, they were very apologetic and offered replacement powder. You cannot ask or expect better than that from any manufacturer. It may be expensive but with this sort of service it's got to be worth it.