Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

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All handloading data posted on Full-Bore UK from 23/2/2021 must reference the published pressure tested data it was sourced from, posts without such verification will be removed.
Any existing data without such a reference should be treated as suspect and not used.

Use reloading information posted here at your own risk. This forum (http://www.full-bore.co.uk) is not responsible for any property damage or personal injury as a consequence of using reloading data posted here, the information is individual members findings and observations only. Always verify the load data and be absolutely sure your firearm can handle the load, especially older ones. If in doubt start low and work your way up.
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The Gun Pimp
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#11 Post by The Gun Pimp »

Racalman wrote:OK that's muddied the waters a bit. I was going to ask about the expander ball next ...

I don't intend to turn the necks, mainly because life is too short for any more steps in the reloading process.

I use Lapua cases exclusively and I plan to measure the necks on some loaded rounds to see how much variation there is.
Measure the neck brass thickness before you load using a ball (or tube) micrometer. Lyman used to do one which was only about £40.

Lapua cases are very good - which is why the mandrel method works so well - almost giving results equal to a 'fitted' neck.

I know Laurie likes to lightly skim even his Lapua brass though.
Racalman
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#12 Post by Racalman »

The Gun Pimp wrote:Well, a 308 mandrel - in theory - would give you no neck-tension as it is the same diameter as your bullet but, of course brass is a little springy so the 308 might do. If you want to increase neck-tension go a thou or two smaller. Lightly lube the inside of the necks before you upsize. I mainly shoot 6mm and I have 3 or 4 mandrels.
Thanks. I shall investigate.

I find with my standard Redding die that it scores lines on the case necks due to brass particles stuck to the die. Regular cleaning doesn't seem to help much. Also, the effort required to lower the ram when expanding the necks varies dramatically (even with lubrication inside the neck).
rox
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#13 Post by rox »

I use a .307 carbide expander mandrel (floating in a Sinclair expander die). Carbide is a little more slippery. This follows a one-piece FL die - I have a couple of these roughly matched to 'thicker' necks, like Lapua or GGG, and one for thinner necks like RWS. One piece dies let you size right up to the neck/shoulder junction and just might result in fractionally straighter necks. I get excellent results with this process without neck-turning (not that I had any particular problem using bushings without turning though).

If you're getting problems due to brass particles with your die I would investigate where they are coming from. Could it be due to some burr remaining on the case mouth?

..
Laurie
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#14 Post by Laurie »

The Gun Pimp wrote:Well, a 308 mandrel - in theory - would give you no neck-tension as it is the same diameter as your bullet but, of course brass is a little springy so the 308 might do. If you want to increase neck-tension go a thou or two smaller. Lightly lube the inside of the necks before you upsize. I mainly shoot 6mm and I have 3 or 4 mandrels.

IME, the Sinclair E30 mandrel (you also need a mandrel die body to hold it in the press), as in:

https://www.1967spud.com/shop/sinclair/ ... -die-body/

https://www.1967spud.com/shop/sinclair/ ... rsized-30/

as examples work perfectly with cases whose neck O/Ds have been sized down to 0.003" below that of the smallest loaded round.

I have a collection of these Sinclair 'E' mandrels from 22 to 30 calibres, originally bought for use on cases before neck-turning, but I found that they provide the degree of neck tension I like on every cartridge I've used them on. So, I only rarely use the expander ball on any sizing die and expand as a separate step. Being steel mandrels, it is essential to lubricate the inside of the case-neck well or the mandrel quickly galls and picks up brass flakes. Dry powder neck lubes have never worked for me and Q tips plus Redding / Imperial die wax are used and then cleaned off afterwards - tedious, but this process gives very consistent results and is very easy on brass.

Although what the Gun Pimp says about use of bushing dies on non-turned cases is in general correct, the 'Type S' has an expander ball fitted as standard for that very reason and as I said in my earlier post, the correct bushing size is the one that just sees the expander ball work on the reverse press stroke. The only 'Type S' I have is for 308 Win and I very rarely use, really only for switching cases between rifles / chambers. My usual 308 sizer is the Forster Bushing-Bump die plus the E30 mandrel. The 'Bushing-Bump' model is a bushing neck sizer without expander, but where the die body contacts the case shoulders and 'bumps' them to a constant setting. The case walls underneath remain untouched, but in a minimum SAAMI type chamber and with good brass, they never need to be as long as they're fired in the one chamber. (Neck sizing alone isn't a good idea as the shoulders move forwards, and inconsistently at that between cases, so that with anything other than light loads loads soon cause hard chambering due to 'negative headspace' or in plain English ending up as a crush fit in the chamber.)

When I bought the 'Type S' die, I also invested in Redding's optional (and expensive) carbide expander ball which reduces friction further. Even with that I lube neck walls. With everything set just right, I only barely feel the thinner cases pass over the ball on the reverse stroke on a very sensitive Forster Co-Ax press with the optional short handle fitted. Thicker wall cases (whose inside diameter is smaller after the sizing action) provide a little more resistance.

As the 'Type S' die uses a loose fitting 'floating' expander, the combination of minimum sizing due to bushing choice, hardly any expansion, and low friction / stress expansion thanks to the 'floating' carbide 'button' in a well-lubed case gives very good results and low neck runouts with quality brass such as Lapua, Peterson, and Norma out of the box.

Out of the box Lapua 308 Win brass will usually see a 0.0015" variation between the smallest and largest individual readings across the sample when measured at three places on each neck. Within an individual case, the three readings taken around the neck at the same depth will normally vary between nil and 0.001", or just below that figure. Most see a half thou' variance around the neck. A few other makes are as good, many much worse.
Racalman
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#15 Post by Racalman »

rox wrote:If you're getting problems due to brass particles with your die I would investigate where they are coming from. Could it be due to some burr remaining on the case mouth?..
Well I debur the case mouths inside and out using an RCBS case prep centre. It's some years old now and I've never changed the cutting heads so that may be a factor.
Racalman
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#16 Post by Racalman »

Thanks Laurie and others.

My head is beginning to hurt now but I will try to make sense of all the good advice.
Racalman
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#17 Post by Racalman »

OK chaps, I've done some measurements.

The results for loaded neck size on 20 rounds were:

Min: 0.339"
Max: 0.341"
Mean: 0.340"
Std Dev: 0.001"

Running 20 cases through my FLR die with the expander ball removed gave a neck size of 0.333" to 0.334".

Given that I'm keen to keep the number of processes to a minimum I'd still like to try the full length bushing die with expander ball.

What does the panel think?
The Gun Pimp
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#18 Post by The Gun Pimp »

Racalman wrote:OK chaps, I've done some measurements.

The results for loaded neck size on 20 rounds were:

Min: 0.339"
Max: 0.341"
Mean: 0.340"
Std Dev: 0.001"

Running 20 cases through my FLR die with the expander ball removed gave a neck size of 0.333" to 0.334".

Given that I'm keen to keep the number of processes to a minimum I'd still like to try the full length bushing die with expander ball.

What does the panel think?
Well, that should tell you why a bushing die is pointless with a variation of 2 thou. with only 20 cases/rounds checked. Another thing with the expander-ball - there is a line of thought that the ball being pulled through the unsupported case-neck could distort the case slightly - obviously we're only talking in thous here.

At the end of the day, it all depends on the type of shooting you are contemplating - if it's benchrest with a tight-neck chamber - neck-tuning with a bushing die and seating with a Wilson hand-die will give best results. For F Class, up-sizing with a mandrel and seating with a Wilson hand-die or a Forster seating die will give best results in a standard chamber. For anything else, a good quality die set - like Forster - will suffice.
Racalman
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#19 Post by Racalman »

I shoot 1,000 yard snaps off a bipod and I'm pretty competitive already but the 6.5mm boys tend to do better so I'm just looking for a bit more consistency from my handloads. The chamber is standard and I use a Redding competition seating die.
Laurie
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Re: Redding type s bushing full sizing die - advice please

#20 Post by Laurie »

The 'Type S' set-up will reduce the work stress on the case-necks as you'll do less sizing down and less subsequent expansion. It obviously won't affect the amount of neck expansion on firing as that's determined by neck to chamber clearances and likely quite large in a standard chamber (assuming when you say standard, you mean as in factory rifle). It'll likely give a marginally more concentric neck than from many standard dies, but no better than from the better ones, principally Forster.

So, with for the cost of a 'Type S' and a couple of bushings which even in uncoated steel are £20 a throw, all you're purchasing is a basically good quality sizer and bit extra case life. A cheap annealer, or slightly more frequent replacement of the brass seems better value to me.

As The Gun Pimp says, the best investment if you must spend money on tools is a mandrel expander, but you're going to struggle to see any effects on 1,000 yard scores in a factory 308. Depending on what your load is, and what kind of Lapua brass you're currently loading, your most productive investment may well be to buy 100 small primer Lapua 'Palma' (or Peterson equivalent) cases and develop the fastest loads the brass and your rifle will allow allied to one of the higher BC bullets (subject to what your rifling pitch rate allows), work up a really good grouping combination, and get as much trigger time in as you can at these distances. A minor improvement in wind reading skills with competent long-range ammo will give you far, far more improvement in results over minor improvements to how cases are sized.

(............ Oh, but you'll still be whaled by any half-competent 6.5 at this distance! That's why in F-Class, 308 and 223 get their own class - FTR - and the 6.5s, sevens etc go into 'Open'.)
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