Killing of Swans

[Dougan]

Hi ptheta,

Let me assure you that I am not 'anti air rifle'.

This is my Anschutz 250. I've had it since I was 15 (could never part with it) and still attempt the odd club comp a few times a year (although I can't shoot it standing up for toffee). The club I go to does 'kids club' at the weekends, and we have half a dozen club air rifles for them to use (the scouts use the range sometimes too). The club encourages shooting as a sport, and if the kid's (if they're old enough) want to try .22 they can (at a different time).

I still however think air rifles should be licenced - they have to be bought (and supervised over) by an adult - so it would be dad (when a kid wants one) that pays for the licence. I don't think the process needs to be as complicated or as stringent as an FAC (or cost as much), but I think it would be useful for the police (when missuse of an air rifle is reported) to know who has them. And if someone is caught missusing an unlicenced air rifle, then it should go against them if the ever apply for an FAC.

Hopefully it would put off some of the idiots who shoot anything that passes through their garden - I do have an 'emotional responce' to swans being killed - so I wouldn't like to say how I'd feel if someone 'plinked' my cat...

[bobbob]

Maybe an air gun licence could be a "lead in" to having a firearms licence. Prove you can behave yourself while owning an air rifle with a token fee for a licence. When you are ready to step up, the cost could be deducted from a firearms licence.

[ptheta]

It's not clear to me from your responses if you disagree with me when I say that licensing air rifles will all but kill off air rifle shooting in this country or if you think that's a price worth paying.

I shot for a couple of years on the HFT circuit and I'm in no doubt that licensing would kill that stone dead. It's already struggling as a result of the high price of fuel: each of the league shoots is held at a different club's grounds within a region. For example, I shot with the Central Southern region and we went from as far south as Meon valley (south Hants) up as far as Wendover (Oxon). This sector of our sport is very price sensitive.

Regarding the cost of a license, I just don't see how it can be cheap without the sort massive tax payer subsidy which is highly unlikely right now. Even if you could modify the current firearms licensing database to hold the details of people with airguns, which is questionable, you're talking about at least an order of magnitude increase in the scale of the problem. That's a awfully big IT infrastructure investment as well as the associated staffing costs before you even consider the cost overruns inherent in these types of national IT projects.

[Ovenpaa]

Every year we see airgun related deaths in the news, normally little 'uns. I accept that it is all but impossible to licence current air rifles but I would like to see new sales licensed and secure storage enforced. People need to understand that they are capable of killing people as much as vermin and even one less death has to be a good thing.

The other thing is airgun deaths and incidents are included in gun related crimes and deaths which impacts us directly as firearm owners

[ptheta]

Every year we see airgun related deaths in the news, normally little 'uns. I accept that it is all but impossible to licence current air rifles but I would like to see new sales licensed and secure storage enforced. People need to understand that they are capable of killing people as much as vermin and even one less death has to be a good thing.

The other thing is airgun deaths and incidents are included in gun related crimes and deaths which impacts us directly as firearm owners

The law regarding storage has changed this year: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/17/section/46

In addition to that since the VCR came into law all new air gun sales are via RFDs who keep a register of those sales. I don't see what a licensing scheme will add in addition to these laws other than to kill off the sport.

Like all the huge number of new laws that have been pumped out in the last few years though, they aren't a thing without the resources to enforce them. For example, when was the last time you saw someone driving down the road using a mobile phone without a headset? I reckon I see that two or three times a week.

[Ovenpaa]

...In addition to that since the VCR came into law all new air gun sales are via RFDs who keep a register of those sales. I don't see what a licensing scheme will add in addition to these laws other than to kill off the sport.

Like all the huge number of new laws that have been pumped out in the last few years though, they aren't a thing without the resources to enforce them. For example, when was the last time you saw someone driving down the road using a mobile phone without a headset? I reckon I see that two or three times a week.

Killing off the sport is my concern but for a different reason. You and I use licensed firearms capable of killing, does an airgun differ so much?

Yes, I see drivers with mobile phones 2-3 times a day, usually brand new cars as well :(

[ptheta]

I think we've argued this to a stand still and will just have to agree to differ. I understand your point of view that if there are deaths attributed to air guns then it will lead to the death of the sport. I think these are pretty rare in spite of the disproportionate media attention they receive vs. other untimely deaths. I think that bringing in licensing will kill the sport off anyway.

Perhaps we'll end up with a system like in Germany where unlicensed air guns are restricted to much less power than they are here. From what I've heard elsewhere, the 12 ft/lb is just a arbitrary limit lobbied for by British manufacturers in the 50s or 60s when the limit was brought in and has more than a whiff of trade protectionism about it.

I don't believe for a second that we will see air guns licensed in the way that firearms are, in the short term. There just isn't the will from the Police, i.e. ACPO, or the budget to do it. Of course, maybe that will change after the Scottish experiment. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Ovenpaa]

Yes we have both put our views forward and I fully understand where you are coming from and for the record I suspect the chances of licensing being introduced is incredibly slim. The German licence model is appealing however you could argue that we are already doing this with the 12ft/lb cut off point.

[the running man]

most of you seem to have missed the point,

that most of the guys who shoot air rifle,do so because theve no chance in hell of obtaining an fac.

have u ever been unfortunate enough to chance upon poachers using airguns? or estate kids? i have,and its no comfy situation i can tell u,wannabes is the word ide use.

rats and pigeons in the rafters are the only legitimate air rifle usage on a farm,all else can be better delt with by a .22lr.

[the running man]

and another thing, i was an estate kid,i started on air rifles,but from the outset i checked all backstops,watched where i was pointing it & never loaded in the house,....after having the foresight to see where life was headed i wanted better for myself than gettin multiple girls preggers,having the langustic skills of vicki pollard,drainning the benefit system and doing drugs........i got out earned a few quid and broke free of that kind of a life,now im 35 ive got my own house,a wife of 15 years,im an rco,a phoenix record holder,and was 2places off the gr team. my point is,not all who own air rifles were as responsible as i was, and whilst i would never want that right to have an air rifle taken ftom me,times have changed for the worst.........i therefore support a very loose regristration type air rifle cert. not to strenuos or expensive,£30 would be fair,with a american style 15 day wait till it comes back,a simple background check.