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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:02 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:23 am 
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The more I see of USA police firearms cockups, the more I'm glad I don't live there. 5mith


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:05 pm 
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It seems to be SoP in the US that once one officer shoots they ALL shoot?! Looks like it was the shorter officer on the right that shot the woman but without an unblurred video its difficult to see her reactions to the shots. Only the officer whose body camera was shown really had a decent chance of shooting the guy cleanly once he reacted to the first shot and squashed his head down behind the woman.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:59 pm 
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I dunno. How can you not just hit the intended target from that distance?
Scumbag cowering behind the hostage probably isn't going to kill their shield as it's an instant death sentence.
They could possibly have got close enough to have popped the muzzle virtually in his mouth and squeezed the trigger.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:59 pm 
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Dark Skies wrote:
I dunno. How can you not just hit the intended target from that distance?
Scumbag cowering behind the hostage probably isn't going to kill their shield as it's an instant death sentence.
They could possibly have got close enough to have popped the muzzle virtually in his mouth and squeezed the trigger.


Have you ever been in a situation like that ?

Despite what the commentary stated - it was NOT a marksmanship issue.

Probably more to do with adrenaline. And stress.

And the fact that in those scenarios, the human bodies defence system causes the vision to become acutely tunnel visioned - it zooms in on the threat ( muzzle / knife / suicide vest / whatever ) and nothing outside that tight tunnel of vision is visible any longer. If you cannot see it, you are more likely to hit it by accident.

This accounts for most collateral damage. Some cope with it better than others. Repeated exposure to it helps lessen its effect - military guys have reported the "tunnel" widening up with experience.

The adrenaline also is a big factor - fine motor skills are adversely effected - a fantastic target shooter can become a barn door job when in a stressful situation.

In hunting its known as buck fever - a normally good shot getting the shakes when it comes to taking a shot on a live creature.

Another example of this is the shooting of the suspected suicide bomber on the tube - range was less than 12" and still not all rounds were on target !

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:12 pm 
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Guy nearest could have taken him with one head shot. What a bunch of under trained liabilities ****

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:39 pm 
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Quote:
The more I see of USA police firearms cockups, the more I'm glad I don't live there. 5mith


No different from Brit cops in some ways then? Rest assured there are some fine cops with amazing marksmanshp skills in the USA - one of the places on earth where I feel safe at any time...Some forces however are abysmal as their trainig is poor to be kind and god awful in some areas. Qualification target sizes are being INCREASED by some forces so that lousy marksmen can hit them and qualify!

There are drills that cops can practice for EXACTLY that scenario - a firing squad is NOT the answer, far from it. The solution called for an attempt at de-escalation when he grabbed the woman followed by a single head shot when the opportunity presentd itself.

F@rting about with bean bags rounds would only have hacked him off: he looked a big lump of a bloke. If they were not effective then they should have transitioned to either a solid baton round or solid slug (not buckshot due to proximity of bystander). AT any rate, he should have been dropped as soon as he went for the hostage. Oh and where were the Tazers in all of this if they wanted to go "less likely to be lethal" in the first case???

Quote:
"The adrenaline also is a big factor - fine motor skills are adversely effected - a fantastic target shooter can become a barn door job when in a stressful situation."


TARGET SHOOTERS and defensive firearm shooting are two different things entirely and at vastly different speeds.

Quote:
"And the fact that in those scenarios, the human bodies defence system causes the vision to become acutely tunnel visioned - it zooms in on the threat ( muzzle / knife / suicide vest / whatever ) and nothing outside that tight tunnel of vision is visible any longer. If you cannot see it, you are more likely to hit it by accident."


Yes tunnel vision can be a factor IF you allow it to be, that's why constantly staring THROUGH sights in a situation like that is a "no no": you have to break the tunnel vision by lowering the muzzle a fraction and re-orientating (look OVER the sights not through them - try it, it works).

Quote:
"Probably more to do with adrenaline. And stress."


Nope, they are trained for that - or should be! They already had a "failure to stop" situation and they FAILED to deal with it BEFORE he gabbed the hostage, the cops were at fault here!
As soon as that woman was grabbed it called for a de-escalation attempt to allow ONE officer to get close enough to pull of an aimed head shot if need be - which CAN be placed from a low ready in under .70 of a second! It did NOT warrant the panic firing of multiple rounds from the officers....

Quote:
Guy nearest could have taken him with one head shot. What a bunch of under trained liabilities ****
That would have been the preferred solution gazza. Marksmanship - or lack of - killed that woman, end of story.

Oh and remember that all that tunnel vision, aural distortion, adrenalin and disorientation is also happening to the SUSPECT who may well have thought he'd been shot with LIVE ammo when being hit with those bean bag rounds..and was going to die anyway....

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