Enfield opinion

Pre 1945 action rifles. Muzzle loading.

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Sim G
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Enfield opinion

#1 Post by Sim G »

A few months ago I picked up an Enfield No5, except it wasn’t. It’s a very nice No5 fake, or replica as I prefer! :D

Got talking to a mate about it tonight who has been shooting longer than I’ve been alive and he stated when we got talking about my Enfield that it may not be a fake built in recent times as I suspected. He went onto to say that during the Malayan Emergency, Palestine, Suez and Jordan there was a need for a handier battle rifle and there weren’t enough original No5s available so a quantity of No4s were “retro fitted” as No5s but not necessarily marked....? Really? I’m sceptical, but, what do you reckon....?

Obviously, my rifle looks like a 5. But the first give away is supposedly that the butt stock has two holes filled in on the bottom edge which shows it was originally a 4. Take the wood work off and there is no lightening flutes on either the receiver or barrel. So a again a No4.

But, the barrel has been shortened and there are rings around the barrel for about six inches towards the breech as if it had been turned down on a lathe. Supposedly, fakes made in the 90s and so, had aluminium flash hiders with no bayonet lug. Mine is steel and has a lug. The barrel and the receiver are both parkerised. Oh, and the barrel inside, is lovely!!

As for markings, on the left side of the receiver on the flat next to the receiver ring is a capital K with a dot either side, like “.K.” Then it’s marked “No4 Mk2” and below that, “F57 FTR”. On the same left side, just above the safety it’s marked “IAC ALE”. There are some other marks that I can’t discern on the top of the receiver and on both sides of the butt mount. There is though, a “H27” on the right side of the mount. All of the marks were made before the finish was done or re-done as the Birmingham proof marks show differently.

So, anyone heard the story as offered to me? Likewise, anyone know what the marks mean?
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

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Fedaykin
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Re: Enfield opinion

#2 Post by Fedaykin »

I would lean towards sceptical, nothing is impossible and there were warehouses full of No.4 available to be converted. What makes me doubt it is the time frame. Production of the No.5 continued through to December 1947 with most late production probably being warehoused themselves. The L1A1 started to be issued out to units in 1954 so whilst the No.5 was certainly used in places like Malaya as an interim solution I would be vaguely surprised that we ran so short that more needed to be made. I would also think if a further batch needed to be made why all the secrecy? I would think there would be some evidence of an order.
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rufrdr
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Re: Enfield opinion

#3 Post by rufrdr »

Sim G wrote:A few months ago I picked up an Enfield No5, except it wasn’t. It’s a very nice No5 fake, or replica as I prefer! :D

Got talking to a mate about it tonight who has been shooting longer than I’ve been alive and he stated when we got talking about my Enfield that it may not be a fake built in recent times as I suspected. He went onto to say that during the Malayan Emergency, Palestine, Suez and Jordan there was a need for a handier battle rifle and there weren’t enough original No5s available so a quantity of No4s were “retro fitted” as No5s but not necessarily marked....? Really? I’m sceptical, but, what do you reckon....?

Obviously, my rifle looks like a 5. But the first give away is supposedly that the butt stock has two holes filled in on the bottom edge which shows it was originally a 4. Take the wood work off and there is no lightening flutes on either the receiver or barrel. So a again a No4.

But, the barrel has been shortened and there are rings around the barrel for about six inches towards the breech as if it had been turned down on a lathe. Supposedly, fakes made in the 90s and so, had aluminium flash hiders with no bayonet lug. Mine is steel and has a lug. The barrel and the receiver are both parkerised. Oh, and the barrel inside, is lovely!!

As for markings, on the left side of the receiver on the flat next to the receiver ring is a capital K with a dot either side, like “.K.” Then it’s marked “No4 Mk2” and below that, “F57 FTR”. On the same left side, just above the safety it’s marked “IAC ALE”. There are some other marks that I can’t discern on the top of the receiver and on both sides of the butt mount. There is though, a “H27” on the right side of the mount. All of the marks were made before the finish was done or re-done as the Birmingham proof marks show differently.

So, anyone heard the story as offered to me? Likewise, anyone know what the marks mean?
IAC ALE refers to Interarms Corp, Alexandria VA. They were the importer to the U.S. They then wholesaled the imported arms to the many jobbers such as Navy Arms for example who then modified the rifles to resemble #5s. I'm betting the flash hider assembly is cast steel.

With the quantity of #5s made and the relative few in relation to the quantity needed for theater operations, I'm guessing the UK had plenty on hand to fill immediate needs and didn't need to convert any. If they had been converted, wouldn't a new identifier for the converted arm have been established?

All of that said I bet it is a great shooter!
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Re: Enfield opinion

#4 Post by Ovenpaa »

Was it Navy Arms who introduced (Invented) the No7 Carbine that was based on the 2A1?
/d

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Re: Enfield opinion

#5 Post by JS569 »

I've not heard of this before but have heard of many been converted to resemble legit No5s.

I think to further the point about being enough rifles in stock, my No5 was brand new 2 years ago when I got it. it had never been shot (apart from proofing) and came covered in grease. So I'd assume if they had No5's new in stock why bother converting them. Additionally, the No4 was battle proven and the No5 whilst having seen limited actualy service had the wandering zero myth hanging about it. So surely if there was a supposed problem with the No5 woundn't the army revert to the No4 which they had boatloads of and there was no bad press. Just a thought.
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Re: Enfield opinion

#6 Post by TomH »

According to Lee Enfield guru Ian Skennerton, there were 252,329 No'5 produced by BSA and Fazakerley. More than enough to equip units in the Far and Middle East.

Perhaps this thread from Milsurps.com explains the origin of Sim's rifle:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=29147&page=1
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Sim G
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Re: Enfield opinion

#7 Post by Sim G »

Yeah, I was sceptical from the start. I was though, a little hopeful! My Uncle served with 9 Para RE during the Jordan Emergency in ‘58. Photos of him show him with a No4, with other blokes sporting a couple of No5s and a Bren. Despite the adoption of the L1A1 four years earlier, they hadn’t reached that crack squadron of brickies and chippies! lol

With what rufrdr has said, it makes perfect sense. At the end of the day, I reckon I got myself a lovely little .303 that really does shoot!

Thanks for the input. :good:
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
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Re: Enfield opinion

#8 Post by GeeRam »

Sim G wrote:Yeah, I was sceptical from the start. I was though, a little hopeful! My Uncle served with 9 Para RE during the Jordan Emergency in ‘58. Photos of him show him with a No4, with other blokes sporting a couple of No5s and a Bren.
My Dad was issued with a No.5 for the duration of his 12 month tour with the RE in Palestine in 1946/7, and his younger brother carried one in Malaya in 1952.

And here is a photo of two of my Uncles with No.5's when with the Argyles' in Palestine around the same time as my Dad was there.
Robert&Bill_Palestine46.jpg
Sim G wrote: At the end of the day, I reckon I got myself a lovely little .303 that really does shoot!
Probably because its not as light as a real No.5 so not as vicious..... :D
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Re: Enfield opinion

#9 Post by rufrdr »

Ovenpaa wrote:Was it Navy Arms who introduced (Invented) the No7 Carbine that was based on the 2A1?
Yes, they marketed them heavily along with a cut down #1 mk III rifle/carbine ,#4 rifle/carbine and the before mentioned faux #5
carbine.

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Any of these made it to your location ?

http://www.enfieldresource.com/sorrell- ... e-enfields
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Re: Enfield opinion

#10 Post by MistAgain »

Clearing an old range bag and I found a York Guns 2000/2001 Trade Price List .

In the military rifles section under Jungle Carbines was this little jem ..........

303 Enfield No 5 Jungle Carbine rebuilt out of No 4 rifles . Aparture rearsight . Excellent condition .

And a bit further down the page ...................

New 7.62x54R Mosin-Nagant carbines ...............under £100.00 !
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