NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

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Sfwh
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NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#1 Post by Sfwh »

I am really curious to get the general opinions of the CSR community on this issue. I think that the NRA CSR league has some great events I just have one problem with them. The current rules state that to enter the historic division you must use a Lee-Enfield, and not any Lee-Enfield mind you, it has to be a WW1/WW2 model so I couldn't even try my luck with my long lee.

I found this out a few years ago when I assumed the Historic division of the falling plates match allowed any historic rifle. So my team and I turned up with WW1 vintage Schmidt-Rubins and just accepted the fact that our magazine capacities may put us at a disadvantage. When we arrived we were told the Historic division was for Lee-Enfields only and therefore we would be in modern division. You can imagine how 4 Schmidt Rubins faired against 4 AR-15's with Bipods and Scopes. I assume the result was off-putting because 3 out of 4 of my team never competed again. We did however ask the match organisers why the insistance on Lee-Enfields and they clearly didn't have a reason as they changed the rule the next year. Now whilst the majority of shooters still use the Lee I've also seen K31's, Mosin-Nagants and even Black Powder which I really think adds to the fun of it all.

When I have asked people why the rules can't be changed to allow for the thousands of other historic rifles I have had the following responses:

"Why don't you just buy a Lee-Enfield they're the best" - Because they're not for me I prefer my other rifles and if they're the best then no one should be upset if other rifles compete

"There are competitions where you can use non-Lee Enfields" - Yes there is the Trafalgar Meeting, the Historic Service Rifle Match and as of recently, The Falling Plates Match. That is 3 in a year though and 2 of them are in October there are many more CSR matches throughout the year that have really fun courses of fire and they already have a historic division albeit a very limited one.

"Why not compete in Any Irons Division" - I intend to and I'm not really bothered by the fact that I'll lose ot an AR-15 I'm happy to be the underdog but it is very off-putting to many members of my club that they are entering competitions as new shooters knowing that they're starting at a massive disadvantage.

"Why not just have competitions within your club" - We do but that denies people the chance to experience big matches as part of the wider CSR community.

"But the CSR competitions have their roots in the old British Musketry Regulation" - Yes and I don't think the courses of fire should be changed. The British marksmanship standards were some of highest in the world and I'm curious as to how other countries rifles, and even other British rifles (like my friends P14), fare in said competitions.

So having waffled for too long already does anyone else have an opinion on this. Do you feel the rule should be changed to let more people compete or do you think that it should remain a Lee-Enfield competition only?
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#2 Post by DanTheMan »

Civilian Service Rifle and Practical Rifle Classes:

Historic Enfield
a Any SMLE, No 4 or No 5 .303” service rifle
b Rests may not be used
c Trigger weight 4.5lbs minimum
d As issued sling

Any Iron
a Iron sights only
b No restriction on slings
c Rests are prohibited
d Trigger weight 4.5lbs minimum
e Magazine resting is permitted, no part of the wrist of the supporting arm may touch the ground

Service Optic
a No restriction on slings b Magazine resting is permitted, but no part of the wrist of the supporting arm may touch the ground c Fore grips are prohibited, as are any modifications to the fore end, such as hand or sling stops, intended to facilitate an advantage with the support hand.
d Bipods are prohibited
e Trigger weight 4.5lbs minimum
f Optic sights maximum magnification of 4.bowl

Practical Optic
a No restriction on slings or rests
b Bipods may be used, but must remain fitted at all times
c Vertical fore grips may be used, but must remain fitted at all times
d Trigger weight 1.5kg minimum
e No restriction on optic sights
It's called Historic Enfield class for a reason, and I think CSR is appealing as the rules are simple and cater for everyone. There are guys shooting "Any Iron" with Beretta BM59's, Garands, AK's, SMLE's, No4's & Jungle carbines so you would fit right in. Don't think of it as being up against AR15's with iron sights of which there are a couple but think more of it as being up against yourself and getting a better score week on week. The Schmidt-Rubins can be very competitive and you could argue the design puts you ahead of the Enfield bolt actions, bloody good fun to shoot at any rate.
Sfwh
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#3 Post by Sfwh »

Well I know it's called Historic Enfield class because you're only allowed to use a Lee-Enfield but that's not actually a reason for the rule it's just a statment that that is the rule. I would disagree with you there I think CSR does not cater for everyone but easily could. If you turn up with a Mosin-Nagant and are told you have to compete against BM59's and AK's you'd likely feel a lot more daunted than if you were up against Lee-Enfields or Mausers. If we should all be entering with the view to compete against only ourselves then why have divisions at all. The practical optic and historic shooters could be alongside each other in that case. The reason there are divisions in the first place is to allow people to shoot their firearm of choice on a level playing field and make people not feel compelled to just get the fanciest rifle with the fanciest scope.

I don't think the Schmidt-Rubin does have an advantage over the Lee necessarily but what if it did? Should we dissalow rifles that might be better than Lee-Enfields? By that logic if AK's won practical optic this year maybe next year they should be banned and the division be renamed Practical Optic AR-15? Ultimately it doesn't really matter it just seems a shame to put off so many people for what is as far as I can tell no reason.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#4 Post by DanTheMan »

Sfwh wrote: Ultimately it doesn't really matter it just seems a shame to put off so many people for what is as far as I can tell no reason.
Due to it's increasing popularity it's usually a full house, max numbers every competition weekend. Nick is the CSR rep so you can always have a chat with him, things do change. I'm a relative newcomer but was drawn in by the friendly atmosphere, simple rules and the fact that the best marksmen win, not the best or most expensive rifles/ammo which is what levels the playing field.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#5 Post by Mattnall »

CSR rules also state that the rifle should have a 10round magazine capacity.

Your problem is like owning a Mini and saying "why can't I enter the Lotus Challenge races, I'll be at a disadvantage I know, but it seems so unfair!".

IIRC it was tried at one of the historic SR matches and the time wasted with having to allow the 5 rounders to reload and the changes in the CoF to accommodate them (gap added or lengthened mid practice to allow reload/recharge etc) meant less could be achieved during the day. It may seem like a few seconds added on the CoF but those few seconds ended up taking many minutes to achieve.
All this to appease the many individuals and clubs who complained they weren't included and successfully petitioned the NRA but on the day only one or two actually entered. If more of the complainants actually entered and made it worthwhile including them I'm sure it would have continued in some form or other.
In the end at the risk of offending many owners and one or two shooters I believe it was dropped in favour of the current (pre-existing) rules.
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Sfwh
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#6 Post by Sfwh »

Should have a 10 round magazine not must.

They allow non-Lee Enfields in the falling plates and they have an "any other rifle" division for the historic service rifle match. Both of those competitions are designed for 10 round magazines but neither of them give any concessions for people who need to reload. Similar to how if you enter any irons division with a 5 shot rifle you wouldn't be given a concession. If they used the rules already in place it wouldn't cause any problems.

My problem is like owning a Mini and being told I can't enter the Lotus Challenge I have to enter formula one otherwise it's unfair on the people with Lotuses.
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kennyc
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#7 Post by kennyc »

Mattnall wrote:CSR rules also state that the rifle should have a 10round magazine capacity.

Your problem is like owning a Mini and saying "why can't I enter the Lotus Challenge races, I'll be at a disadvantage I know, but it seems so unfair!".

IIRC it was tried at one of the historic SR matches and the time wasted with having to allow the 5 rounders to reload and the changes in the CoF to accommodate them (gap added or lengthened mid practice to allow reload/recharge etc) meant less could be achieved during the day. It may seem like a few seconds added on the CoF but those few seconds ended up taking many minutes to achieve.
All this to appease the many individuals and clubs who complained they weren't included and successfully petitioned the NRA but on the day only one or two actually entered. If more of the complainants actually entered and made it worthwhile including them I'm sure it would have continued in some form or other.
In the end at the risk of offending many owners and one or two shooters I believe it was dropped in favour of the current (pre-existing) rules.
as a K31 shooter I have a problem with that statement, insomuch as I have never asked for an extension to the time allowed for reloading, in my opinion the vast majority of people have plenty of time for a reload in the average comp, I do remenber the discussions some years ago and a lot of the comments were along the lines of "this is a Lee Enfield comp buy one or don't compete " !
I can remember taking part in a Historic match even though it was made clear in advance that only LE would be allowed prizes!
its no wonder that there has always been a poor turn out from non LE owners, as the comments always left the impression that CSR was wonderfully inclusive and welcoming...as long as you adhered to the dress code ! troutslapping
on another note
I really enjoyed the falling plates this year and will certainly be back again next year cheers

PS the British Alpine Rifles Agincourt match held during the Imperial is open to all comers with a bolt action service rifle , it is shot standing unsupported at 300 yards with a maximum of 5 rounds in the rifle at any one time,
15 rounds and 1 minute to shoot them in. great fun ! bangbang
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#8 Post by lapua338 »

It's called Historic Enfield class for a reason
That's all the explanation you need. The course of fire is designed for the Enfield. It's maintaining the ethos of the class. The competition would fall into disrepute if they accommodated all and sundry. As soon as you do someone a kindness or a favour (with 'Can I shoot this?' or 'Can I shoot that?') then the Historic Enfield class ceases to be.

If you feel that strongly why not start a class for Long Lee's or K31's? I have a K31 and it's a great rifle, however, I wouldn't demand to shoot in a competition for Historic Enfield's.
Sfwh
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#9 Post by Sfwh »

as a K31 shooter I have a problem with that statement, insomuch as I have never asked for an extension to the time allowed for reloading, in my opinion the vast majority of people have plenty of time for a reload in the average comp, I do remenber the discussions some years ago and a lot of the comments were along the lines of "this is a Lee Enfield comp buy one or don't compete " !
I can remember taking part in a Historic match even though it was made clear in advance that only LE would be allowed prizes!
its no wonder that there has always been a poor turn out from non LE owners, as the comments always left the impression that CSR was wonderfully inclusive and welcoming...as long as you adhered to the dress code ! troutslapping
on another note
I really enjoyed the falling plates this year and will certainly be back again next year cheers

PS the British Alpine Rifles Agincourt match held during the Imperial is open to all comers with a bolt action service rifle , it is shot standing unsupported at 300 yards with a maximum of 5 rounds in the rifle at any one time,
15 rounds and 1 minute to shoot them in. great fun ! bangbang[/quote]

Yeah I agree there is more than enough time. I actually like having to reload as I think it's an important skill to practice under time pressure and not just rely on only ever needing 10 rounds or less.

I have also experienced the "just buy a Lee-Enfield it's the best" to which I would say "how do you know you never compete against anything else?". Now it just feels like this exclusive club designed to punish those who bought the "wrong" rifle by making them compete against rifles 100 years their junior. I assume that the no medal if you don't use a Lee-Enfield rule has a national pride element to it which I actually find it quite embarrassing as a British person. If the Lee-Enfield is so good then prove it don't change the rules so you're guaranteed a win.

Yeah me and my club were at the falling plates this year too. We had a Garand, Springfield 1903, Schmidt Rubin G11 and a P14. So great fun and I love the Agincourt. I am a BAR member now so will be able to compete for the English next time.
Sfwh
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#10 Post by Sfwh »

lapua338 wrote:
It's called Historic Enfield class for a reason
That's all the explanation you need. The course of fire is designed for the Enfield. It's maintaining the ethos of the class. The competition would fall into disrepute if they accommodated all and sundry. As soon as you do someone a kindness or a favour (with 'Can I shoot this?' or 'Can I shoot that?') then the Historic Enfield class ceases to be.

If you feel that strongly why not start a class for Long Lee's or K31's? I have a K31 and it's a great rifle, however, I wouldn't demand to shoot in a competition for Historic Enfield's.
I'm really confused as to why you think the class would fall into disrepute just because someone turned up with a Long-Lee, that is a Historic Enfield after all. Also I would be happy to compete in a all comers historic class if there was one but there isn't. One could be created but then people would start complaining about their being too many classes. I assumed that it would not be that big a deal to just let other historic rifles in the existing historic class but clearly I had not taken into account what I can only assume is a fear by Lee-Enfield owners of losing to a foreign rifle.
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