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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:49 pm 
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Ovenpaa wrote:
Alan D wrote:
Morning David,
this sounds dangerously like the truth! Yikes, that never goes down well.

I do hope you are pleased with yourself getting in the way of a good old fashioned gossip fed internet lynching and spoiling the crowds fun....
I am sorry you feel that way. When I started this thread it was not my intention to promote a hanging party and being quite honest, I still do not see it that way either. From a personal view point I have been reasonably non-committal on the whole affair. The law has shown Laidler and Smith to be guilty and that should be the end of it.

I have kept my personal opinion well out of this thread and I suspect a few others on here have done the same which is very fair, to comment further would be wrong.


I would say your started thread was absolutely fine, unfortunately people tend to pitch in with uninformed gossip .. The human condition I guess.

David TS has set the gossipers right, unfortunately some just don't want to hear it.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:15 pm 
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So you’re saying he’s not a convicted thief? Having stolen from a national, publicly owned collection, whilst actually responsible for it? And then sold what he had stolen...?

Well then, best you stop wasting your breath here with protestations of his righteous and honourable the man is and get yourself down to the Court of Appeal!!! Best tell them how very naughty that jury was and how dare that judge pass such a sentance!

But then you bottled it 25 years ago when you saw “wrong doing” and now have a moral compass completely ar$e about face. And then you wish to “judge” the contributors of this “conversation”.

As with Laidlers guilt, it’s fairly evident you struggle with the concept of right and wrong also. No wonder you have his corner. Hope you didn’t buy anything from him....

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:00 pm 
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Good evening Sim, you appear to trying to rather ineffectively sling mud. If you aren't capable of reasoned debate without throwing your toys out of the pram, perhaps try card games, or something more soothing.
It's not good for your blood pressure you know.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:27 pm 
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Slinging mud, Alan? Read all of your posts from the beginning of this thread. The mud you've slung is all about the "injustice" of the proceedings and the corrupt handling by MoD police.

Never once condemnation for the man who stole a very desirable item from the country and then sold it for his own benefit... Not once has the pursuance of a criminal been approved, only the insinuation that Laidler is some sort of "victim"!

That in itself piques my interest. Do you offer the same support to the veteran who recently had the British Legion tins away? Or how about the Victoria & Albert museum curator in charge of rare and desirable Chinese treasures who helped himself? That OK?

So why the support, Alan? I get that some patients thought Harold Shipman the best GP they ever had, so is it because you liked his writing, that Laidler could not possibly have done any wrong? Or do you not agree that given his conviction and sentence, compounded by the rare piece of firearms history he stole and aggravated by his abuse of the trust placed in him, the shooting and firearms owning community, who profess to be the most law abiding of this country's citizens, should not rightly condemn Laidler for the abuse of trust that was placed in him?

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Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:11 am 
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Well, with tounge firmly held in cheek, here we go ...That sir was a long rant, impressive that you managed to work Harold Shipman in there! goodjob

David TS spelt out the 'actual pertaining facts' of the case, they seem to have fallen on deaf ears unfortunately.

Wrong doing was done and a 72 year old is in prison, that's a legal fact, not sure what you are arguing about there??

That being the established facts, I certainly feel I can sleep safer in my bed tonight Sim, knowing that public interest has been served, a fortune has been spent on an Keystone Cops investigation, putting a criminal mastermind behind bars after all ...

God knows what nefarious criminal activities those deactivated Firearms and live Sec1 rifles on Sec1 FAC's (those precious collectables stolen from the nation were consigned for scrap by the way) could have been put too...it makes you shudder just to think about it.

I only wish the same level of effort (and money) could be put into putting my local drug dealers behind bars..

Look, I can do sarcasm too .... Oh sorry, 'Ted Bundy' Nealy forgot to add the obligatory serial killer in my reply.

Anyways, we clearly won't see eye to eye on this, I've got better things to do, so I've nothing more to add...

Cheers and happy shooting, Alan.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:00 am 
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Alan D,

So what you are saying is that resources were wasted on something that were not that important in the case of Laidler and Smith?
Resources that could have been used better elsewhere, we all know police/law resources are stretched as it is.

You are not actually disagreeing with SimG in that Laidler did something wrong?

You see, to a certain extent I do agree with you, who cares about one stolen rifle when we are up against so much more.

Thing is, society has to clamp down on everything, otherwise things start to slide.

Who did what and why in terms of the MOD, courts, jury, at the end of the day Laidler did something wrong which he is now paying for. goodjob

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:04 am 
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Alan D, are you saying Laidler and Smith were guilty of simply taking items from the scrap bin? If that is the case it does seem like a poor show. The details of the charges have always been vague so I was not aware of this detail.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:30 am 
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I didn't know the guys involved as some seem to have done. And I am not up to speed with all the details of the case, only what I have read on here and in the article that was posted. But a small thought I had that I thought I would add to the debate (and no I am not looking for an argument).

Do we not think that it benefits the shooting community that matters like this are taken seriously? If they had been let off for any reason or given a lighter sentence (it is already quite light compared to what you would expect for the crime that is being reported) then it would be everywhere. Plastered all over the news and social media that "FAC holder gun thief was let off". It is just another tick in the box for the anti-gun lobbyists to use to smear the name of all of us.
I'm not suggesting that they should be imprisoned even if they are innocent just to give us a break. Only that if a law was broken it shouldn't become a case of "Oh well you didn't actually do any harm so we will let you off with a slapped wrist".

And again, I do not know the facts of the case, so this is more a general musing for similar cases, not specific to this.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:17 am 
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To keep this in context:

When the L96 went out of service circa the mid 90's it was after the MOD had stopped sales of ex military firearms to the public/trade.

The L96 was effectively scrap at that point, with no value, as it was obsolete (replaced by the L115A1), the MOD couldn't sell them to anyone. There were a very limited number of sales of ex police L96's to the public.

Ironically what made the few L96's that were sold subsequently valuable is their rarity value, because the MOD scrapped the majority of them when they were worthless..........!

It is a fact (given in evidence in court, so a matter of public record) that for long periods of time the collection at the SASC had no proper management.

It is also a fact (again, given in evidence in court, so a matter of public record) that the records kept of acquisitions and disposals at the SASC were deficient.

Some of the other rifles in the case were built from components, that had little, or scrap, value.

At a predecessor court case the scrap TMH's were valued (weigh in value) at something like 8p each!

The Browning Hi Power pistol was PL's own property.

I don't invent any of this, I sat through the evidence given in court in September and took 20 pages of notes on the above in one day alone.

There is so much more, but I still have very active involvement in this, so I am being extremely careful not to be drawn into a detailed debate.

Again, my only interest in posting here is a matter of factual accuracy. The real facts of a case are rarely what is reported by the press.............


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:23 am 
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Morning Christel and Ovenpaa.

Re the L96, all UK military issue L96's were prohibited from sale.

So they were all destroyed, bar specific retained examples.

Some clearly weren't destroyed.

It doesn't really matter if they were taken from the condemned list, if they were removed without the specific authority (of the right people) then it's theft.

Absolutely, banged to rights, it's a fair cop....

That said, when you consider the unchecked knife carrying, open drug dealing and anti social activities going on in our towns and cities, with little to no police or court intervention, the effort and finance put into this affair shows how disconnected the judicial system is.

Quite frankly, spending enormous sums of money putting a 72 year old behind bars for extreme skip diving is pathetic.

Christel, I fully take your point on you can't let things slip, I really do, but the tail is wagging the dog here in my opinion!

Just my opinion, other can and will vary no doubt...

Have a good day guys..


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