Gun Crime UK

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Pippin89
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#101 Post by Pippin89 »

Darkskies - Your ordeal is certainly shocking, but you can't think it is the norm for this sort of behaviour. Yes of course there are people out there who just want to harm. As you alluded to, there is absolutely zero opportunity, by the sounds of it, where a weapon of any kind on your person would have helped in that situation.
Sim G wrote:
Pippin89 wrote: Key words "With Training".... You are still relying on your training being SIGNIFICANTLY better than your attackers (considering they have the advantage of already having their weapon drawn). That's a big gamble to take....
As opposed to relying on the “charitable nature” of your attacker, then calling someone else to come look after you....! Seriously?!!! FFS.

I’ll leave this now as I’m about to start giving an opinion you won’t want to hear.
At what point did I say charitable? If the attacker wanted to hurt you even if you complied then why would they rob you and then hurt you. If they are in the position of demanding your wallet then they have already decided not to harm and only to intimidate. Otherwise it would be much easier for them to hurt first and then take your belongings without any resistance....

Of course there are always situations where having a gun on you would give you a better chance of a good outcome. My argument is that there are far more situations where having a gun on you would give you a worse outcome. Simple probability.
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breacher
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#102 Post by breacher »

Pippin89 wrote:
christel wrote:Pippin89,

The scenario you are describing, for some people the outcome is less important than doing the right thing.

I for one will defend my house, my dogs, my husband, in no order, at any cost.

Even if I die in doing so, at least I did the right thing.

Please remember that just because you will hand your wallet to the criminal does not mean that applies to all.
"The right thing" is subjective and differs for you and me. For me doing the right thing is coming out of the situation alive. If that means letting someone go with my wallet then so be it. Going home to my family is more important to me than letting someone escape with a few quid! For me THAT is doing the right thing.....
What if, in your scenario, its not your wallet but your wife or daughter ?
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froggy
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#103 Post by froggy »

My argument is that there are far more situations where having a gun on you would give you a worse outcome.

Frankly, I do not see how it would be.
However, I do agree with you that thanksfully the situation is still "ok" & incidents are still rare enough, even in the Sh*ty part of SE London where I live where multiple stabbings have taken place , many of them fatal.
The only time in London I really felt threaten for my life and wished I had been armed was during the 2011 riots when I got caught by a mob who mistaken me for a plain-cloth policeman, but, granted, that was very much an exceptional situation.
That is why I do not feel the need nor I am an advocate of arming myself.
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Pippin89
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#104 Post by Pippin89 »

breacher wrote:
Pippin89 wrote:
christel wrote:Pippin89,

The scenario you are describing, for some people the outcome is less important than doing the right thing.

I for one will defend my house, my dogs, my husband, in no order, at any cost.

Even if I die in doing so, at least I did the right thing.

Please remember that just because you will hand your wallet to the criminal does not mean that applies to all.
"The right thing" is subjective and differs for you and me. For me doing the right thing is coming out of the situation alive. If that means letting someone go with my wallet then so be it. Going home to my family is more important to me than letting someone escape with a few quid! For me THAT is doing the right thing.....
What if, in your scenario, its not your wallet but your wife or daughter ?
Interesting premise.... It is a different scenario in which, of course, I would do whatever I could to stop them being taken and probably get shot in the process. And yes in that situation I would possibly have a very marginally better chance of succeeding if I had a gun as well. But the odds would still be against me. And gun point kidnappings are far less common than muggings.

Carry a gun for that situation would be like going for a run on a hot sunny day without a cloud in the sky and wearing a rain coat just in case it rains. There is a one in a million chance you will end up staying dry from the rain and a 999,999 in a million chance you will end up soaked in sweat and just as wet as you would have been if it had rained!
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Pippin89
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#105 Post by Pippin89 »

froggy wrote:My argument is that there are far more situations where having a gun on you would give you a worse outcome.

Frankly, I do not see how it would be.
However, I do agree with you that thanksfully the situation is still "ok" & incidents are still rare enough, even in the Sh*ty part of SE London where I live where multiple stabbings have taken place , many of them fatal.
The only time in London I really felt threaten for my life and wished I had been armed was during the 2011 riots when I got caught by a mob who mistaken me for a plain-cloth policeman, but, granted, that was very much an exceptional situation.
That is why I do not feel the need nor I am an advocate of arming myself.
Froggy, interesting thought for you. How do you think that situation would have played out if both you and the mob had been armed?
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#106 Post by Dark Skies »

Pippin89 wrote:- Your ordeal is certainly shocking, but you can't think it is the norm for this sort of behaviour. Yes of course there are people out there who just want to harm. As you alluded to, there is absolutely zero opportunity, by the sounds of it, where a weapon of any kind on your person would have helped in that situation.
It HAS become the norm. At that time I lived in a rural market town in an affluent part of Oxfordshire that has gradually been extended.
That incident was forty years ago and it was not unheard of. Now things are much, much, much worse. When I lived in Lewisham SE violent crime of some sort was frequent. The police sirens were a constant backdrop. I didn't care to go out on foot much in the evening. Do it enough times in the area I lived in and sooner or later you'd regret it. All I can really say that has changed since the mid nineties is that at least then the stabbings were not nearly as commonplace. And reading that some scuzzbag had thrown acid into someone's face was still a shocking thing to contemplate. Things are worse now.

In the course of this discussion I've recounted three incidents of violence that happened to myself and people I personally know. As well as an incident involving my ex-wife and an act of home invasion. In typing this I've just remembered a further two nasty incidents but don't want to keep recounting them.

I am not John McClane. I'm just a regular guy living in a 'posh' part of Oxfordshire. Yet I can reel off these incidents. I'm sure others living in more challenging areas can too . Probably more so. So yes, it has become the norm.

Also I didn't allude to there being "absolutely zero opportunity, ..., where a weapon of any kind on your person would have helped in that situation." I simply chose not to go in that direction.

In the run up to the first assault I had ample time to draw a weapon and stop the threat there and then, possibly without having to demonstrate the fact that I was armed.
I live in a country where the correct procedure is to take my lumps and then, if able, to report the matter to the police. So this was not a concern my attacker had to consider.
However, in an armed society, my assailant would not have been sure if his intended target could defend himself or not. That being the case the chances are high that he would not have chanced it.

And even it were not the norm why should ordinary folk be subjected to being a statistic so that when enough of us have suffered you will grudgingly err on the side of the law-abiding? How many people have to be stabbed, shot, kicked to the kerb before you appreciate others (not you, if you so choose) should be permitted to be in a position to defend their person with viable means?
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RDC
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#107 Post by RDC »

Dark Skies wrote:
Pippin89 wrote:- Your ordeal is certainly shocking, but you can't think it is the norm for this sort of behaviour. Yes of course there are people out there who just want to harm. As you alluded to, there is absolutely zero opportunity, by the sounds of it, where a weapon of any kind on your person would have helped in that situation.
It HAS become the norm.
Agreed. Random violence is the norm where I live too. Comply with muggers and still get stabbed.

I feel more threatened in the city I live and been subjected to more violence, than I ever did living in a less civilised part of the Middle East during the Arab Spring and the time period Bin Laden got slotted.
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#108 Post by ordnance »

IMO if you own a gun, it is your upmost responsibility to train in order to be safe.
Now, if you own a handgun for self-defense, in addition to be safe, you also have to use efficiently and therefore to train regularly & rigorously. No need to be "an expert" , just to do it well . In that case, "no if / no but" and with all due respect, Sim's statement is 100% correct and yours is not.
Some civilians here who have never used a firearm carry one for self defence, And there have being no issues that i am aware of. So even without training they can be carried safely, without all the problems people worry about.
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#109 Post by Blackstuff »

Pippin89 wrote: Carry a gun for that situation would be like going for a run on a hot sunny day without a cloud in the sky and wearing a rain coat just in case it rains. There is a one in a million chance you will end up staying dry from the rain and a 999,999 in a million chance you will end up soaked in sweat and just as wet as you would have been if it had rained!
The analogy is false, thats using the coat when it isn't necessary. There is a one in a million chance you will end up staying dry from the rain and a 999,999 in a million chance you're have a slightly tired arm from carrying a little bit of extra weight. teanews

Oh and coincidentially i always have a light waterproof, medium weight and heavy weight jacket in my car, regardless of the weather. :D
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Re: Gun Crime UK

#110 Post by froggy »

Froggy, interesting thought for you. How do you think that situation would have played out if both you and the mob had been armed?

We will never know for sure. It was a fairly "traumatic" experience & I replayed the scenario in my head many times if only to analyse how I dealt with it .

Had they had gone offensive on that day, my chances of safe escape would have been very small. The place had gone in utter chaos, shops were ransacked, cars smashed, people were beaten-up all around me , not a policeman in sight for days etc... etc ... Interestingly the only shop that remained intact was the one protected by tooled-up Kurds...

As it happened, I think I did the right thing, ie : I remained calm, using my Krav training I positioned myself, bluffed confidently & aggressively my way out of the situation & legged it. I guess, had I had been armed, I would have done absolutely & exactly the same but with the added confidence that at any moment producing a firearm would have dissuade them to back off without even the need to open fire.
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