When does a strightpull rifle become a pump action?

[bradaz11]

so, looking around at various rifles and modifications to speed up straightpull ars and the like, with handles starting to come forward so you don't have to move your left hand (if holding right hand on pistol grip) as far to cycle the action.

so how do they define pump and what makes it pump and not straightpull, where is the line?

[Sim G]

Thinking about it for a little while and having a little look-see, I would say "pump action" are operated using the forend.

[bradaz11]

Basically think win 97 pump shotgun but in rifle caliber, fix the pump handle in place to be a handguard, and on the end of the op rods, fix round lugs.
Translate that to an M4 with side charger cuts on both sides of the receiver had a mech that extended down the outside of handguard ending in a piece of round bar 90 to the barrel, on either side of the barrel, which you cycle by hooking with finger and thumb, racking backwards, where your fingers slip off at rear of travel and spring closes the bolt, and you slide your hand back down the foregrip.

would that be sec 1 or 5?

[Dellboy]

Basically think win 97 pump shotgun but in rifle caliber, fix the pump handle in place to be a handguard, and on the end of the op rods, fix round lugs.
Translate that to an M4 with side charger cuts on both sides of the receiver had a mech that extended down the outside of handguard ending in a piece of round bar 90 to the barrel, on either side of the barrel, which you cycle by hooking with finger and thumb, racking backwards, where your fingers slip off at rear of travel and spring closes the bolt, and you slide your hand back down the foregrip.

would that be sec 1 or 5?

what about making the pump bit detachable so it was a cocking aid ?

saw a rifle on the net the other day that was a pump action ish thing made me wonder

[Sim G]

Basically think win 97 pump shotgun but in rifle caliber, fix the pump handle in place to be a handguard, and on the end of the op rods, fix round lugs.
Translate that to an M4 with side charger cuts on both sides of the receiver had a mech that extended down the outside of handguard ending in a piece of round bar 90 to the barrel, on either side of the barrel, which you cycle by hooking with finger and thumb, racking backwards, where your fingers slip off at rear of travel and spring closes the bolt, and you slide your hand back down the foregrip.

would that be sec 1 or 5?

I would say s1 straight pull. The levers to operate the action are still attached to the action and extended. They are not an integral part of the mechanism. If you remember, there were some straight pull MP5s which used the traditional cocking handle of those particular guns, which is over the barrel.

The pump-action ban was something that really p*** me off. There were very few around anyway and came about because some knob decided to challenge the Home Secretary over his "knowledge" when banning semi auto. The result was simply Douglas Hurd really did have power to ban what he wanted...

That aside, the concept of straight pull rifles, which was derided in the US, at their inception, have almost become "acceptable" in other parts of the world? Troy and POF make dedicated straight pulls for the domestic US market as well.

But as this is about pump action, the Troy pump action AR? I'd still have one even if we could have semi as well!!

https://youtu.be/OYRRzus9wto

[youtube]https://youtu.be/OYRRzus9wto[/youtube]

[Mattnall]

Guy Savage made a similar thing to what you are talking about (I think, if I understand you correctly).

An AR type rifle with a straight tube hand-guard.
This hand-guard had two slots milled in either side at 90° and at 270°.
A saddle was placed inside the hand-guard and over the barrel and two handles placed through the slots and into the saddle. The saddle had a bar that followed the path of the gas tube and operated directly on the gas key.
Operation was by pulling either handle or cupping the hand-guard and sliding your hand along the barrel using both handles (preferred method).

This looked an interesting design but had many problems;

• the saddle tended to bind if only used with one handle

• the handles were too far forward to be used in prone

• wear on the hand-guard slots was extensive (steel float tube would have helped but made things heavier).

He sold a few but as to whether it was legal or not, only a court could decide I guess.

[Sim G]

Guy Savage made a similar thing to what you are talking about (I think, if I understand you correctly)....

...He sold a few but as to whether it was legal or not, only a court could decide I guess.

Ah, the "Suburban Lord of War"! "Legal or not?" was almost a mantra of his! Does anyone know if the "destruction" of SDI has come to court Stateside yet?

[poll007]

I Posed this exact question back in 2016 (thread below)
https://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=26436

Short answer is that there appears to be no strict definition in law, so it would all come down to the interpretation of the home office on any give gun.

Recently i was looking at the krieghoff semprio but found out on their website that it is restricted likely for being deemed a pump action.

I pose the question of if i have something like a straight pull AUG, and always hold the charging handle with my left hand, is it then a pump action as Im not needing to move my hand to perform the cocking action? if i added a linkage so it was held from below it would definitely be classed as pump action.

[Blackstuff]

Short answer is that there appears to be no strict definition in law, so it would all come down to the interpretation of the home office on any give gun.

This /\/\

For my money it would be any firearm where you don't have to break your grip/get hold of another part of the gun with your support hand and you have to 'pump' the action, i.e. a positive rear and forward motion required. But as above, it will be down to some Chief Constable getting his/her knickers in a knot and then doing a ton of backroom wrangling to get it banned through legislation*, oh sorry, I meant for the Home Office to decide.

*see MARS/lever-release ban

[bradaz11]

thanks all

that has helped, nice to see other people have got stuff like described passed. I realise that theres no real clear cut definition so would be a grey area.

Sim, yeah that pump rifle looked great, it is a real shame, and no, I had no idea how pumps came to be included in the ban.

Mattnall - yeah that is basically exactly what I described although a lot more polished. nice that the idea in principle got out there and wasn't instant sec 5

dellboy - , yeah, it would really help if that handle could attach and be used to help 'pump' those rods back eh?

poll - yeah the semipro does look to be pump as defined by our loose description here, although (before reading your thread) I would say if the aug only had a handle to actuate it, then it is straightpull, but if it was something to hold and steady the rifle while firing, then no, it's a pump. thats why I was seeing just two pins to hold, so you are still gripping the rifles stock. of course if you were just steadying the rifle off a handle sticking off the side and never steady from the foregrip, thats still straightpull, you are just not holding the rifle right.

blackstuff - yeah, indeed. don't forget to throw in whether the date is odd or even


so basically the reason im asking all this is probably simmilar to poll, I am thinking if I can alter the cocking handle of my m1carbine to be a bit more friendly, and one thought was moving the control of it foward, all early days, but wanted to see if it was utter out of bounds or not. seems there is scope for some modification, but limit to still needing to hold stock when firing.