Mattnall wrote:Guy Savage made a similar thing to what you are talking about (I think, if I understand you correctly)....
...He sold a few but as to whether it was legal or not, only a court could decide I guess.
Ah, the "Suburban Lord of War"! "Legal or not?" was almost a mantra of his! Does anyone know if the "destruction" of SDI has come to court Stateside yet?
I didn't realise pump action rifles were banned, though it now explains why the Semipro is not imported. I became aware of it a week or so ago and could not figure out what made it non UK legal.
I think there is a UK RFD currently working on what I can now only assume is a "forward cocking" AR platform from something that was mentioned in passing. I was guessing they were running a bar down the gas port in the receiver which seems a sensible option, but what stops it being a pump? If the charging T is the main cocking method but you have an option to use a device that runs from the forend, is that legal? It sounded like a good idea but now has the potential for being very costly.
as discussed here, the consensus seems to be that if you move the foregrip to rack the action, or anything in place of the foregrip, then it is a pump. IE firing grip doesn't change or release to cycle the action
but if you fire holding the foregrip, and then move some other lever, breaking your grip from the foregrip, it ***should*** be a straightpull. IE moving your hand to a handle to cycle, or sliding it along the foregrip
but essentially the law is vague, our opinions don't matter and ultimately if your local police force think it *may* be a pump, then a court will probably be making a ruling on it during your attempted prosecution for having a sec5 firearm. this then giving everyone else more guidance on what is and isn't construed to be a pump.
When guns are outlawed, only Outlaws will have guns
(2A)In this Act “self-loading” and “pump-action” in relation to any weapon mean respectively that it is designed or adapted (otherwise than as mentioned in section 5(1)(a)) so that it is automatically re-loaded or that it is so designed or adapted that it is re–loaded by the manual operation of the fore–end or forestock of the weapon.
(2A)In this Act “self-loading” and “pump-action” in relation to any weapon mean respectively that it is designed or adapted (otherwise than as mentioned in section 5(1)(a)) so that it is automatically re-loaded or that it is so designed or adapted that it is re–loaded by the manual operation of the fore–end or forestock of the weapon.
S5(1)(a) is the law that prohibits machine-guns.
The question becomes what counts as "fore-end" or "fore stock".
As always it will be down to the HO or FEO interpretation. but i think its safe to say it would be whatever part you supposed to be holding whilst shooting offhand.
so as others have suggested, you would need to break your grip to operate the mechanism to avoid it being a pump action.
(2A)In this Act ... “pump-action” in relation to any weapon mean ... that it is so designed or adapted that it is re–loaded by the manual operation of the fore–end or forestock of the weapon.
The question becomes what counts as "fore-end" or "fore stock".
As always it will be down to the HO or FEO interpretation. but i think its safe to say it would be whatever part you supposed to be holding whilst shooting offhand.
so as others have suggested, you would need to break your grip to operate the mechanism to avoid it being a pump action.
I'm barely familiar with "genuine" pump-actions, but:
Don't you have to "pump" it in both directions to get to a firing condition, whereas a straight-pull you just pull to the rear and let go; and,
Doesn't a genuine pump action lock forward once cocked until the shot is fired - there's some sort of release device if you want to unload it from the ready condition, whereas a straight-pull you just pull the handle back to feed a fresh round whether fired or not?
Therefore, does that functional difference (if I'm right that it exists) serve to differentiate the two?
IainWR wrote:
I'm barely familiar with "genuine" pump-actions, but:
Don't you have to "pump" it in both directions to get to a firing condition, whereas a straight-pull you just pull to the rear and let go; and,
Doesn't a genuine pump action lock forward once cocked until the shot is fired - there's some sort of release device if you want to unload it from the ready condition, whereas a straight-pull you just pull the handle back to feed a fresh round whether fired or not?
Therefore, does that functional difference (if I'm right that it exists) serve to differentiate the two?
My pump shotty does lock foward, yes, but I would think its a by product of needing to use the pump handle as a foreend more than anything else (does anyone know of any pumps that don't lock when racked foward?), if I disabled that feature I wouldn't make the shotgun straigtpull, it'd just be an unsafe pump.
I would say straightpulls dont lock their actions until fired because there is no need to, if you are on the handle, you want to open it.
there are also pumps that have springs that aid the pump in closing I think.
When guns are outlawed, only Outlaws will have guns
When straight pulls are charged, their actions are locked because of the nature of their design. Stoner's AR or the cammed block of the FAL. Pump shotguns don't have locking lugs, or cams or rotary bolts. The lock holds the action in place so the s*** is discharged safely. Pump rifles may have a locking breach block like with Winchester 1890 et al, but then rifles use cartridges generating much higher pressure than a shotgun.
Thing is, there's not many pump rifle around! So for those that had never realised why, at the time of the semi auto ban in '87/'88, there were Colt Lightning's and a few others of the "Wild West" era. Remington has probably been the biggest proponent of the system with their Model 14 then subsequent 760 and 7600. They were generally a hunting gun and not often seen here. Then there was the nifty little, IMI Timber wolf! A Winchester 62 on steroids chambered for .357!
Semi auto rifles were also not a really big thing. The NRA still utilised the Enfield decided not to adopt the L1A1 as the civilian service rifle back in the 50s. Most semis were, a civilian version of a military battle rifle. There wasn't a lot of support from even the shooting community to try and keep them. It as what it was...
Anyhow, story goes that Douglas Hurd met with the NRA who still "led the charge", and allegedly the first words out of Hurd's mouth were, "I'm banning semi automatic rifles and whatever you have to say won't change that". Evidently more a dictate than a discussion. When asked why? Hurd simply replied, "Because the shoot too quickly". Now allegedly one of the delegation incensed by this said it showed how much he knew because pump action rifles can shoot just as quick as semi automatic! And without missing a beat, Hurd said, "I'm banning them as well!"
I have no reason to doubt it. My Sgt Maj at the time was also my "shooting buddy", he had a friend in the high ranks of the NRA who was allegedly there. Seems perfectly plausible and is as good a reason as anything why this category also was moved to Section 5....
But I digress. Probably because I like pump guns full stop! I had designs on a Timberwolf and lost a Lightning when it came in. Today I'd certainly have a Troy "pump AR", if we still had them!
And it's the Benelli M3 that utilises the operating spring when empty after pumping. The pimp will lock back, drop a cartridge in the ejection port and hit the bolt release button and the bolt, pump mechanism fly forward under spring tension. But, at all other times, it runs just like a pump.... unless you've switched it to semi.... if you see what I mean.
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?
Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
Sim G wrote:
Anyhow, story goes that Douglas Hurd met with the NRA who still "led the charge", and allegedly the first words out of Hurd's mouth were, "I'm banning semi automatic rifles and whatever you have to say won't change that". Evidently more a dictate than a discussion. When asked why? Hurd simply replied, "Because the shoot too quickly". Now allegedly one of the delegation incensed by this said it showed how much he knew because pump action rifles can shoot just as quick as semi automatic! And without missing a beat, Hurd said, "I'm banning them as well!"
I have no reason to doubt it. My Sgt Maj at the time was also my "shooting buddy", he had a friend in the high ranks of the NRA who was allegedly there. Seems perfectly plausible and is as good a reason as anything why this category also was moved to Section 5....
The story also goes that the bit in S28 (1B) Firearms Act 1968 as amended:
For the purposes of paragraph (b) of subsection (1A) above an applicant shall, in particular, be regarded as having a good reason if the gun is intended to be used for sporting or competition purposes or for shooting vermin; and an application shall not be refused by virtue of that paragraph merely because the applicant intends neither to use the gun himself nor to lend it for anyone else to use.
was inserted because Hurd finally figured out that without something like that his late father's pair of Purdeys, value £40k or some such, that he had on ticket, would be going in the smelter.
