Durham making stuff up again !!

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phaedra1106
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Durham making stuff up again !!

#1 Post by phaedra1106 »

Had a call from Durham licensing early this morning.

As club secretary I haold the club FAC, it's currently in for a variation and I'd asked them to also add a moderator.

Basic conversation was that as I already have 10 guns if I wanted another moderator the firearms security handbook says I'd have to have an alarm fitted.

I told her that wasn't what it said at all, I live in a very quiet area, have locks fitted to all windows and doors and lighting to the front and back of the house so not at any increaded risk.

She wouldn't budge so I said not to bother, I already have a couple of spare slots on my personal FAC so I'll use those.

5mins later she rang back, supervisor says no you can't do that, the handbook says for over 10 you need an alarm. I could have pointed out that apart from the 10 firearms I already have 3 moderators which they've known about for years and it's not been a problem.

So, I've emailed them asking why they are in fact doing the exact opposite of what the security handbook actually says,

"It must be stressed, however, that it is not enough to base an assessment on the number of firearms alone – all factors mentioned above and in paragraph 2.20 should be taken into account. Sound moderators, spare barrels, spare cylinders and component parts should not be considered as part of the total."
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Re: Durham making stuff up again !!

#2 Post by Rockhopper »

Derbyshire say something similar - more than 12 then monitored alarm needed. No debate allowed.
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Re: Durham making stuff up again !!

#3 Post by Blackstuff »

It would be interesting to hear where they got the number 10 from. As above i've heard/read of the number 12 in documentation before but not 10, but even then as the OP quotes from the guidance that isn't an absolute reason for refusal.

Its fairly daft for moderators to be even on the books in the first place given how easy it for criminals to make one. Hell you can buy them online from most 'Chinese supermarkets' delivered direct to your door as 'oil filters' anyway
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Re: Durham making stuff up again !!

#4 Post by 1066 »

Don't you think that some legal eagle from a consortium of the associations could write a strong letter to the necessary parties and get this nonsense sorted out. If a pound or so a year for each of us, from our various associations subs was paid into a legal fighting fund a few of these "make it up as you go" ideas could be challenged in court.
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Re: Durham making stuff up again !!

#5 Post by 1066 »

Blackstuff wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:36 pm It would be interesting to hear where they got the number 10 from. As above i've heard/read of the number 12 in documentation before but not 10, but even then as the OP quotes from the guidance that isn't an absolute reason for refusal.

Its fairly daft for moderators to be even on the books in the first place given how easy it for criminals to make one. Hell you can buy them online from most 'Chinese supermarkets' delivered direct to your door as 'oil filters' anyway
There is absolutely no difference between the Parker Hale .22lr moderator and PH moderator sold for airguns - neither has a serial number.

One you can buy over the counter for a few quid, the other you need to go through the whole rigmarole
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Re: Durham making stuff up again !!

#6 Post by phaedra1106 »

The publication is available here, https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... y-handbook

The figures "6 to 10" are mentioned in the following section, this is for Level 2 security,

2.21 For these purposes, a “substantial” number of firearms should be considered with regard to the type of firearms, their potential danger if misused and their likely attractiveness to criminals – for example, forces may wish to exclude muzzle loading shotguns and muzzle loading rifles given they rarely feature in criminal use. At the lower end the number might vary between six and ten, depending on the type of firearm concerned, whilst anything over ten would rarely be lower than level 2. It must be stressed, however, that it is not enough to base an assessment on the number of firearms alone – all factors mentioned above and in paragraph 2.20 should be taken into account. Sound moderators, spare barrels, spare cylinders and component parts should not be considered as part of the total.

An alarm ( Monitored or otherwise) is only suggested for those needing Level 3 secutity, see section 2.23 c

"c) Protected by an intruder alarm to BS4737 3.30:2015 or equivalent and ideally monitored by a NSI monitoring centre with an appropriate response."

Our indoor club had an alarm monitored by the police, it went off twice last year, on neither ocassion did the police turn up or even bother to try to contact anyone at the club.

2.24 Mentions a "a larger number" as meaning over 12, but again this has to be taken in relation to other matters such as the types of firearms, local crime statistics etc. as laid out earlier in Sec. 2.23.
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phaedra1106
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Re: Durham making stuff up again !!

#7 Post by phaedra1106 »

Just received the club FAC back.

Not only have they not added the required moderator they've also buggered u the variation it went in for!.

We transferred a rifle to a members FAC and sent it off for a 1 for 1 variation for the same calibre rifle.

It's came back with the original rifle removed but no authority to acquire its replacement (empty slot)

They did however kindly leave on the 1.000 rounds of ammunition for it!

Hopeless :(
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Re: Durham making stuff up again !!

#8 Post by dodgyrog »

They've been practicing during their furlow
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Re: Durham making stuff up again !!

#9 Post by poll007 »

1066 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:51 pm
There is absolutely no difference between the Parker Hale .22lr moderator and PH moderator sold for airguns - neither has a serial number.
This is the case with my unmarked .22 mod. the only marking are the proofing house ones.
i listed it as no visible serial number yet someone in the FLD decided "that can be right, lets put it downs as 1 instead" which then confusion for my FEO at my renewal as he didn't believe that it didn't have a serial number until i showed it to him.
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Re: Durham making stuff up again !!

#10 Post by Mike357 »

So glad I'm just inside Northumbria's jurisdiction now. Durham sounds like it would have been a right chew on!
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