Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

[neutron619]

So I'm new here - second post - but I've been sent here from The Stalking Directory to ask for advice as I understand that you all (and specifically a chap called Dromia) will be able to help me with the stuff I've posted below.

Here goes: I am a curious person and I've decided to direct that curiosity once again at reloading, so I've decided to load up some cast bullets for my .308 at subsonic velocity.

There is no particular reason for doing this other than that I can and I want to see what I can come up with. Specifically, I am not:
a) looking to emulate the practices of early bullet makers in times of yore
b) trying to achieve anything more than hitting some sort of large-ish (8-12") target from some sort of short-ish (25-50m) distance
c) going to attempt any kind of hunting with the resulting rounds.

With those factors in mind, you'll understand that I'm not looking to become any kind of expert in using or loading cast bullets (at this point, at least) - I'd just like to put some basic rounds together safely, then fire them down a range and see what happens, and perhaps enjoy having to use a bit of holdover to get them on the paper at 100m (I'm weird).

I'd like to order some cast bullets from these people: http://www.shellhousebulletcompany.co.u ... tslist.htm

I've got some IMR Trail Boss powder on order from a friendly RFD. A relative has offered to order me a Lee Lube & Size kit for Christmas.

The questions I have are threefold:

1. Which Lee Lube & Size kit should I tell my relative to order? A riflesmith I greatly respect (but haven't lately been able to get hold of, and don't want to keep bothering with phone calls - you're probably a member here and you know who you are :)) has suggested that .310 is a good starting diameter for cast bullet experiments in a .308. The Lee kits are only available in .308, .309 or .311, so I need to pick one - which should I choose?

2. For this round, I'm aiming for a velocity in the 1000-1100fps range. I think I've understood correctly that the faster you push them, the harder the bullets should be. However, I have different information from different sources: the Lee manual suggests using BHN = 20 bullets, based on the pressure that Trail Boss pushing a heavy bullet will produce; others say that BHN value should be based on muzzle velocity and that BHN = 12 to 16 would be best. Can someone advise me, with reference to the Shellhouse list, what might be an appropriate bullet for this round and to what maximum velocity I could push it if I up-loaded it?

3. To use gas checks, or not use gas checks, that is the question? I'm happy to buy these - should I? I might buy harder bullets and push them faster at some point - again, just because I can - so they'll get used eventually if I buy any. Really, all reloading experiments that I can conduct with a reasonable certainty of survival are on the cards at some point...

With thanks for any guidance the reloading gurus can give - it will be much appreciated, not least by my relative who is fed up of my procrastinating surrounding the kit I'd like him to buy for me!

Adam.

[meles meles]

"because I can" is good enough reason, ooman. Dromia will be along soon to ensure this isn't your Last Post

[Alpha1]

If you are wanting to buy cast boolits buy them from Dodgy Rog he posts on the forum.
Don't worry about sizing at this stage of the game Rog will size them to what ever diameter you want.

[dromia]

Welcome to Full-Bore UK.

OK firstly do search of these forums I have covered this often.

Next you need to slug your bore to ascertain your groove and bore diameters and ideally a throat slug as well, but to keep it simple just go for a bore slug first. Read Texas Macs article on slugging in the library.

Once you have your groove diameter then you know that your boolits diameter should be, 1-2 thou over groove.

I cannot comment on the Shell house boolits as I do not know the toughness and I never buy or use commercial cast boolits

If you order your boolits to that size ascertained from your bore slug then you will not need to resize them If you are casting your own then depending on what they drop from the mould they won't need resizing either. Get a plain based boolit design. A light boolit with fast pistol powders is the way to go for subsonic loads. The standard load on here is four grains of any fast pistol powder, say N310, over a light boolit. We all get one hole groups from the 30 cal 115 gn soupcan boolit out to 50 yrds

Bin that damned Lee book and forget everything about cast boolits that you have read in it. Get the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, third or fourth editions.

Read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles, it is in the library.

Read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles again.

A soft alloy is best for shooting cast boolits, I use manly range scrap which is too hard cut with lead to give me a Brinnel hardness of 10-12. This works well up to 1800 fps and can go up to 2000 fps if your boolit fit is right. For faster loads boolits don't want to be harder but they do need to be tougher, more malleable. My high velocity alloy is Brinnel 18 and that works at 2,400 fps at least.

Read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles again.

Use up the trail boss as you have it or swap it for a better powder for this application, best powders are in the burn rate of N310, Bullseye, BA10 or whatever, you only need half the charge and they sell for nearly half the price of trail boss and they work better.

As I've said plain based designs are all you need up to 1400 fps and if you have good boolit fit and not too hard an alloy then 1600 fps isn't difficult with plain based boolits, if you want to go faster then a heavier boolit, probably a gas check design if you are going over 1800 fps, for the calibre is better as you will be moving onto slightly slower powders and the start pressure is less than with condom bullets.

Do not crimp unless you are loading for a lever action or a revolver.

Leading and poor accuracy come mainly from one, some or all of the following, poor boolit fit, too hard an alloy and an inappropriate lube for the application. Liquid Xlox, the lee camel snot, will not work well at over 1200 fps in most cases.

Get these three ducks lined up and cast boolits will equal and excel condom bullets in thirty calibre guns up to 2600 fps at least.

Read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles again.

So a sizer shouldn't be necessary all you need is some Xlox or better still 45/45/10. However if you are buying boolits then you can get them sized and lubed for your needs but you will need to slug your bore to know what boolit diameter you need, until you do that we are all guessing.

Finally Read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles again.

[dromia]

I have now looked at the Shellhouse list and from the information on there I would say that none of their boolits would be suited to your situation.

The myth of hard boolits originates from condom shooters trying to get cast boolits to be like condoms bullets, and by bullet manufactures who like hard high antimony alloys as it gives good fill out and can be transported without individual packaging needed to protect softer boolits, so less expense higher profit.

Hard and brittle which is what you get with high antimony and hard cast boolits is not what you need for higher velocities or any velocity for that matter.

[dromia]

BTW ignore the bit in Harris's article about drilling flash holes. I have never had a problem with rimless cases and if the shoulder does set back a tad a partial length or full length resize will sort it.

[neutron619]

Ok - firstly, to everyone including Dromia, thank you for the responses and for your welcome - much appreciated.

Second - if dodgyrog is watching this thread, I think I may need to ask you about buying some bullets! Dromia has rather blown my plans out of the water with his reply, so some rethinking is clearly required.

In reply to Dromia:

To start with, thank you for your comprehensive reply. I haven't yet found the article about bore slugging, but I will keep looking for it when the attentions of my boss aren't fixed in this direction. I will then try to obtain the bore / groove diameter for my rifle. It's a Heym - probably an SR20 - if that helps, though I suspect it's going to be a case of "every barrel is different".

I note your point about resizing being unnecessary if the bullets are ordered to that size.

I have read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles twice so far. I will continue to re-read it.

I don't want to cast my own bullets - me plus molten metal (and nearby small animals and children potentially breathing in fumes) is not a combination I'm particularly keen on investigating, so I'd like to order some pre-cast. If dodgyrog is reading this, or if you can point me towards someone who can supply suitable bullets at reasonable cost, that would be great. The Shellhouse people looked like a straightforward way of obtaining some - I hope there are others. Who provides these "soupcan" bullets and for what price?

I take your point about fast pistol powders and Vit N310 - others I respect as wise have said the same and I would obviously want to take the cheaper option. That said, I don't know of anyone locally who can supply Vit powder at the moment (can any of the Cambs members suggest contacts?) and having already asked a friendly riflesmith to order me some Trail Boss, I'm honour bound to buy and use that first.

I have just read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles for a third time.

I'm not going to be shooting rounds faster than 1200fps at this point, but presumably the "45/45/10" you mention is a lubricant that will give a greater range of useful velocities, in case I want to up-load in future? Is there a preferred supplier of that stuff here that I can use?

I have just re-read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles.

One question further:
Someone has suggested elsewhere (SD) that cases for use with cast bullets need to be neck-sized to be larger than they would with jacketed bullets, else metal will be shaved off the bullet and the fit will be poor in the case and in the barrel. Is this true and is there a particular tool I should use to further expand the case neck?

With thanks for all your assistance,

Adam.

[dromia]

Link to Texas Mac's article, it is a sticky in the library. http://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=855

Email dodgyrog for boolits once you know your required diameter, he does soup cans. He is a cheap so and so as are his boolits, relatively speaking..

Any fast pistol powder will do not just N310.

Yes every barrel is different.

45/45/10 is an improved Xlox/lee camel snot lube. I can supply it or if you go the dodgy rog route then he should be able to lube them for you. He does bugger all anyway except moan so has plenty of time.

If you are going faster than 1200-1400 fps then you will need a better lube than either of the tumble lubes.

Expanding case necks is not so much true or not but fact, it is obvious really.

Cast boolits for a given calibre are usually of a larger diameter than condoms, see boolit fit. Ideally you will want 1-2 thou neck tension on the boolit in the case neck. As cast is bigger then the necks need to be expanded to accommodate this. Only measuring you case mouths will tell you what is necessary. Flare dies like the lee do just that, put a taper flare on the mouth of the case, this will ease the bullet entering the case, what it is intended to do, but it will not expand the case neck if needed. Cast boolits are a lot softer than copper so if the case neck is too narrow, more that 1-2 thou smaller than boolit diameter then it will start sizing the boolit down when it enters the case and that is your boolit fit out the window.

Lyman make what they call an M die, do a search on here, which is a two step expander which with the correct sized spud will give a parallel neck expansion, correct boolit retention and with the second step ensure that the boolit is seated square to the case.

Have you read Ed Harris's article yet?

[dodgyrog]

Ok - firstly, to everyone including Dromia, thank you for the responses and for your welcome - much appreciated.

Second - if dodgyrog is watching this thread, I think I may need to ask you about buying some bullets! Dromia has rather blown my plans out of the water with his reply, so some rethinking is clearly required.

In reply to Dromia:

To start with, thank you for your comprehensive reply. I haven't yet found the article about bore slugging, but I will keep looking for it when the attentions of my boss aren't fixed in this direction. I will then try to obtain the bore / groove diameter for my rifle. It's a Heym - probably an SR20 - if that helps, though I suspect it's going to be a case of "every barrel is different".

I note your point about resizing being unnecessary if the bullets are ordered to that size.

I have read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles twice so far. I will continue to re-read it.

I don't want to cast my own bullets - me plus molten metal (and nearby small animals and children potentially breathing in fumes) is not a combination I'm particularly keen on investigating, so I'd like to order some pre-cast. If dodgyrog is reading this, or if you can point me towards someone who can supply suitable bullets at reasonable cost, that would be great. The Shellhouse people looked like a straightforward way of obtaining some - I hope there are others. Who provides these "soupcan" bullets and for what price?

I take your point about fast pistol powders and Vit N310 - others I respect as wise have said the same and I would obviously want to take the cheaper option. That said, I don't know of anyone locally who can supply Vit powder at the moment (can any of the Cambs members suggest contacts?) and having already asked a friendly riflesmith to order me some Trail Boss, I'm honour bound to buy and use that first.

I have just read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles for a third time.

I'm not going to be shooting rounds faster than 1200fps at this point, but presumably the "45/45/10" you mention is a lubricant that will give a greater range of useful velocities, in case I want to up-load in future? Is there a preferred supplier of that stuff here that I can use?

I have just re-read Ed Harris' Cast Bullets for Military Rifles.

One question further:
Someone has suggested elsewhere (SD) that cases for use with cast bullets need to be neck-sized to be larger than they would with jacketed bullets, else metal will be shaved off the bullet and the fit will be poor in the case and in the barrel. Is this true and is there a particular tool I should use to further expand the case neck?

With thanks for all your assistance,

Adam.

The Doctor is in!
PM me
Happy Christmas from dodgyrog

[dromia]

He can't PM you he hasn't enough posts yet, that is why I told him to email you.

Pay attention now.