Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

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dodgyrog
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Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#11 Post by dodgyrog »

Sorry - I've had a rough day!
Purveyor of fine cast boolits.
All round good guy and VERY grumpy old man.
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Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#12 Post by dromia »

It is only half eleven.
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Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#13 Post by neutron619 »

dodgyrog wrote:The Doctor is in!
PM me
Happy Christmas from dodgyrog
Email sent. Thanks for your PM on SD.
neutron619

Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#14 Post by neutron619 »

Dromia,

Thanks for your further reply. I've read the article briefly but I'll have to come back to it and to you on the other points as I'm tied up at work. At this point, I think I'll be giving up on the cast bullets idea since most of what the article describes is beyond me or any equipment I have. As an ex-chemist, I'm particularly sensitive to the idea of playing with Cadmium - I've seen it's effects and I don't want to go anywhere near it. Still - as I said - I will re-read this evening and post a proper reply then.

Thanks again,

Adam.
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Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#15 Post by dromia »

Working with lead is quiet safe at cast boolit temperatures, I have been doing it all my life with my lead levels being fine.

As a shooter there is more risk of lead poisoning from shooting and breathing in the primer fumes than casting. Not sure where the cadmium comes in, unless it is in the cerrosafe which is not the recommended method for chamber casts. As we are looking at a a bore slug all you are doing is driving an over size, oiled soft lead ball through the oiled barrel. All that requires is a .375" or larger round ball, clean the barrel and lightly oil, also oil the ball, sit the ball on the crown of the muzzle, at this point I cover it with a rag just to catch any oil splatters, then with soft faced hammer drive the ball into the rifling. There should be a ring of lead come of the ball as it enters the muzzle, then with your cleaning rod push the slug down through the barrel as you do this you can also feel for any tight spots your barrel may have. When the slug drops out the chamber, wipe it down and you have a perfect impression of the rifling at the narrowest point of your barrel. Just measure the groove diameter of the barrel form this slug. It takes less time to do that to read this.

Loading lead is not really any different from loading condoms, you just have to find out what components to get in the first instance.

You don't really need anything more than jacketed loading equipment other than perhaps and M die if necessary. casting, loading and shooting lead boolits isn't difficult you just need to get through the initial learning curve and recognise the differences between lead and condom bullets. Can't be difficult even Rodger manages it.
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Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#16 Post by neutron619 »

dromia wrote:Link to Texas Mac's article, it is a sticky ... tumble lubes.
Thank you again for all of the pointers. I've read the article a couple of times - having seen your later post, which I'll reply to in a second, I have to say I didn't see (or understand) the bit about swaging in the article, but your explanation makes more sense. I forgot to mention to dodgyrog about lubricant - except to say could he supply it - but I'll happily buy it from either of you, assuming I can afford to do so. I'll see what he says when he comes back.
dromia wrote:Expanding case necks is not so much true or not but fact, it is obvious really.

Cast boolits for a given calibre are usually of a larger diameter than condoms, see boolit fit. Ideally you will want 1-2 thou neck tension on the boolit in the case neck. As cast is bigger then the necks need to be expanded to accommodate this. Only measuring you case mouths will tell you what is necessary. Flare dies like the lee do just that, put a taper flare on the mouth of the case, this will ease the bullet entering the case, what it is intended to do, but it will not expand the case neck if needed. Cast boolits are a lot softer than copper so if the case neck is too narrow, more that 1-2 thou smaller than boolit diameter then it will start sizing the boolit down when it enters the case and that is your boolit fit out the window.

Lyman make what they call an M die, do a search on here, which is a two step expander which with the correct sized spud will give a parallel neck expansion, correct boolit retention and with the second step ensure that the boolit is seated square to the case.
Thanks for confirming this. I will investigate getting hold of an M die. I assume that since all the Lee and Lyman products are threaded 7/8"x14 that they're essentially interchangeable between presses? - I have a Lee 3-turret press.

I'll reply to your other post in a second - wife wants my attention for "Christmas stuff"...
neutron619

Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#17 Post by neutron619 »

Sorry for the delay. Wife wanted Christmas decorations put up which rather depth-charged my plans for the evening.
dromia wrote:As a shooter there is more risk of lead poisoning from shooting and breathing in the primer fumes than casting. Not sure where the cadmium comes in, unless it is in the cerrosafe which is not the recommended method for chamber casts.


Yup - it was the cerrosafe stuff the article talked about. Sounded very unpleasant. I did wonder if it was the right article, but I followed the link and read it.
dromia wrote:As we are looking at a a bore slug all you are doing is driving an over size, oiled soft lead ball through the oiled barrel. All that requires is a .375" or larger round ball, clean the barrel and lightly oil, also oil the ball, sit the ball on the crown of the muzzle, at this point I cover it with a rag just to catch any oil splatters, then with soft faced hammer drive the ball into the rifling. There should be a ring of lead come of the ball as it enters the muzzle, then with your cleaning rod push the slug down through the barrel as you do this you can also feel for any tight spots your barrel may have. When the slug drops out the chamber, wipe it down and you have a perfect impression of the rifling at the narrowest point of your barrel. Just measure the groove diameter of the barrel form this slug. It takes less time to do that to read this.
Thanks for this description - I'm asking around for a .375" ball (or two, in case I damage the first one) to do this. (Happy to pay postage if anyone wants to offer to supply me a couple.)

Loading lead is not really any different from loading condoms, you just have to find out what components to get in the first instance.
dromia wrote:You don't really need anything more than jacketed loading equipment other than perhaps and M die if necessary. casting, loading and shooting lead boolits isn't difficult you just need to get through the initial learning curve and recognise the differences between lead and condom bullets. Can't be difficult even Rodger manages it.
I should be able to afford a Lyman M-die after Christmas, looking at where they're available. (If anyone has a spare and wants to offer it to me second hand, I'll consider all reasonable prices.) I'm about to send Rodger an email about getting hold of some bullets, so I'll post again when I've made some more progress.

Thank you for your help - it remains much appreciated.

Adam.
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Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#18 Post by dromia »

Texas Macs article covers all the main ways of getting chamber/throat/bore/groove slugs and the people can choose which one fits their needs.

The impact cast is in my experience the easiest and most accurate.

The article does need to be read fully as the best bit is at the end.

The butler did it.
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Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#19 Post by Alpha1 »

If you have set of .308 dies for your rifle you can load cast boolits the only thing you need other than that is as Adam said a case neck expander. The Lyman M dies are excellent.
Just buy some boolits of Rog they will be all ready lubed and have a go. Slugging the bore with a soft lead ball is easy even I can do it. Stay away from cerosafe its pap. As for dangers off working with cast boolits you have got more chance of burning your fingers touching the pot than lead related illness. Your first couple of hundred boolits will recover the cost of a M die and your shooting costs will significantly reduce if you are only loading for the one calibre.
neutron619

Re: Cast Bullets: Which Luber / Sizer Die to Buy?

#20 Post by neutron619 »

Hello chaps,

Well - I found some lead earlier by rooting around in my mountain of discarded "stuff" in the garage, so I've just spent the last two hours banging out an impact cast of the rifle which was more or less successful. I thought I'd post back here with the results and ask for any comments that people have. I'll do that first and then try to respond to the posts above.

Basically, the cast was partly successful. I used lead wire and followed the instructions in Texas Mac's article as nearly as I could. With a bit of hammering, I ended up with a cast of the rifling, but unfortunately the lead in the chamber throat area didn't fuse adequately and disintegrated as soon as it came out of the gun, so I wasn't able to get a throat measurement.

Still - I took plenty of measurements and tried to take an average. The most common measurement across the imprint of the lands was 0.3020" though there were a couple that came out up to 0.3035" I didn't record any measurement smaller than 0.3020".

The measurements across the imprints of the grooves were more variable, between 0.3090" and 0.3120" but they centred around 0.3100"-0.3105" which seems to tally with the measurement of the lands imprint.

So - I could use an expert opinion at this point.

I'm aware that not all rifles chambered for .308 Win are cut with .300/.308 rifling and that mine could very well be .302/.310 by design, but it's not necessarily what I'd expect from a Heym that, by all available accounts and it's condition, seems to have been not much used and in generally superb condition for a 10-15 year old rifle. (In fact, if it's fired more than a few rounds a year, I'd be surprised - I probably gave it it's greatest use in a day testing all of 11 rounds at a range before my first stalk with it in November.)

I suppose what I'm saying is that whilst it wouldn't surprise me that I'd screwed up the measurements / imprint, I don't expect it to have seen enough use that the bore has opened out 0.0020" - it is not a gun that has shot 3000 rounds. Then again, the measurements were self-consistent and the features of the cast were clear. (Discuss, 500 words.)

If all the above be true, then I guess I'm looking for .311" cast bullets. I also suppose that if they turn out to be too big for the throat, that I could get a .309" sizer and shrink them a couple of thou and see if that works better.

Could someone of experience confirm to me that that's a reasonable approach? I'd be grateful, if someone doesn't mind reassuring me.

To respond to Alpha1 - yes, I think everyone's pretty much confirmed the M-die is the way to go, so I'll be ordering one of those soon, cash flow allowing. I am also in discussion with Roger about getting hold of a couple of types of bullets to play with, so I think I'm probably getting closer to actually attempting this thing :-)

To Dromia - thanks for your persistence with me - again, it's much appreciated.

To both of you - I'm aware that lead is not nearly as dangerous as everyone would like to make out. That said, Cadmium very much is, and my comments about not wanting to get anywhere near cerrosafe were based on that.

My comments about not wanting to cast my own bullets at present were more to do with the extreme fatigue (and by extension, clumsiness) that I tend to suffer when I've been working for 4-5 months without a break as is the case currently. Hot liquid metal and tiredness is not a combination I've enjoyed in the past, ever since I picked up the wrong end of a soldering iron in the same exhausted state and had my first up-close-and-personal introduction to molten lead (back in the days when we weren't forced to do microcircuitry with tin-substitute crap...).

Adam.
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