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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:45 pm 
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We still haven't been given an answer from Otterburn as to it being 6 or 30.

We have been told that nobody will be allowed to shoot without supplying the make and calibre of every firearm to be used at a shoot. The JSP403 was quoted as the reason but that isn't what it says at all.

There has been no answer as to why the make of firearm is required.

We were also told this was a national requirement but I've not seen anything online from any other clubs outside the North East about this.

They want the information on the BAMS907 so we have to ask over 100 members if they are shooting on a particular date (possibly months in advance) as well as what firearms they are bringing. No member will be allowed to shoot without providing the information.

NRA advice is just comply or don't bother shooting on MOD ranges.

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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:55 pm 
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On the Bams bid form, there are three drop-down menus asking for the caliber of firearms used. Only one of the drop-down menus is highlighted in yellow. The yellow boxes are mandatory.
So you can select three different calibers.
There is another box where you can type in additional calibers but in all the years I have been booking ranges and it has been a few now I have never used that box or been asked to.
There is nowhere on the form to add makes of rifles or ammunition data. I have never been asked for this information.

However, there is a requirement for your members to supply you with this information on the day. I have a separate form that is available on our web site for people to download.
They fill in the makes models and caliber of firearms they intend to use on the day. If using factory ammo they record that. If they are using home loads they record the bullet weight powder charge and the data they used to build the round. These are handed in on signing in on the day on the range and kept in a file.

This is quite common practice we have been doing this for years are you sure this is not what they are referring to.
It sounds to me whoever you are talking to does not know how the system works and is putting their own interpretation on it.


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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:22 pm 
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Well that would be the NRA and the MOD.

Myself (and the other club secretaries) are not making this up or misunderstanding the existing requirements. We have all had several email discussions with the NRA representative for the North of England regarding this.

This is a new requirement and nothing to do with the Home Office requirement for clubs to record the details for all firearms used with the club, which of course we already do.

This is what Guy Trembath the NRA representative sent to several of the North East clubs,

"Dear All,

To conclude, and having had discussions with HQ, this is a requirement we cannot ignore. It is included in the new version of JSP403 and as such is mandatory if we are to use MOD ranges.

I have also had communication from the OTA Training Safety Officer who is quite clear on the matter. Quote : “Can I just make our position at OTA absolutely clear, if we do not receive the information requested (in a timely manner, not on the day of the activity) then the bids will not be authorised"

For those who wish to reference the MOD document, here it is:

DSA 03.OME Part 3 (JSP 403)- Defence Code of Practice (DCOP) and Guidance Notes for Ranges (Formerly Volume 1Part 2)

Chapter 2 “Use of MOD Ranges”


Para 46 on page 49.

46. Eligibility. To be eligible to use a MOD Range, a civilian club shall apply for a MOD Licence- DIO Form 5665. Additionally, the club shall:


a. Be approved by the Home Office for the calibre of firearms (less shotguns of all types) they intend to use on MOD Ranges and shall be able to produce written confirmation from the Home Office to that effect. (Application for the Secretary of State or Scottish Ministers’ approval is made on Form 124, which is available from any of the principal NGBs). Approval is granted in a Letter of Approval, which is sent to the applicant and copied to the Chief Officer of Police.

b. Be affiliated to the appropriate NGB at paragraph 58 and shall be able to produce written confirmation that its affiliation fees are paid.

c. Provide evidence of valid insurance cover.

d. Be able to provide an NGB qualified Range Conducting Officer (RCO) for each range to be used who is Competent in the specific discipline and proposed activity to be conducted. The RAU is to hold a list of current RCO's together with their expiry date and a list of weapons, or groups of weapons by discipline for which they are qualified to conduct practices.

e. Ensure that Full Members possess and are able to produce valid documentation confirming their membership and their Club Chairman’s certification of their competence on their individual weapon type. This is managed at Club level but is validated, assured and supervised by the NGB who define the processes to be used to issue the Certificates of Competence.

f. Ensure that any Probationary Members are supervised one-to-one at all times by either a Full Member of the club who is authorised by the Chairman of the club or by a NGB trained and certified instructor or coach.

g. Adhere to the agreement for access to ranges between the MOD and the NGB under whose auspices the club is operating.

The NRA’s position is that clubs should provide this information.

Regards

Guy"


As you can see the highlighted portion of the JSP403 doesn't even mention the requirement to provide the make and calbre of any fiirearms used, this is where we can't get a reason for the request.

Myself and other club secretaries queried this and this is the reply I received,

"Hi Jeff,

I think it is open to interpretation. The list refers to the RCO , but the fact that he is on an MOD range means that it relates to the range too. ( I suspect ).

Look, being candid , this isn’t a local initiative and OTA are merely carrying out orders from above.

If you want to push back , you will be excluded from the ranges…..they have said this. "



And finally this is the last email I received from Guy, (OTA stands for Otterburn Training Area)


"Dear All

Further to my previous email I can confirm that the only info OTA needs is the Make and Calibre of each rifle which will be used on a specific day. ( So in the most basic of terms…RPA, 7.62 or Barnard .308 etc. they don’t even need the model .)

Maj Frank O’Kane requests that you all remove his team from CC’s etc in your email discussion.

You have been informed of the OTA requirements and how they are going to apply them .

The OTA team ( and the email boxes filling up ) don’t want to be part of our ongoing discussion.

Regards

Guy"

So, as I said earlier we now have to supply the make and calibre of any firearm being used on the ranges before we shoot. This in turn means we will have to tell our members that unless they tell us they are attending a shoot and provide that information they will not be allowed to shoot. This is not the same as the section on the BAMS907 as it requires the make and every calibre.

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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:29 pm 
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Can someone please increase the time allowed to edit posts?

The last paragraph should read as follows,

So, as I said earlier we now have to supply the make and calibre of every firearm being used on the ranges before we shoot. This in turn means our members will have to tell us in advance that they are attending a shoot and provide the information or they will not be allowed to shoot. This is not the same as the section on the BAMS907 as it requires every make and every calibre.

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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:44 pm 
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Can I ask if any of the other shooting clubs that use MOD ranges throughout the UK have also received this information?

So far it only seems to be the clubs in the North East covered by the Otterburn Training Area (Ponteland and Otterburn ranges) despite the NRA and MOD both saying it's now a requirement for the use of all MOD ranges in the UK.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:06 am 
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Home club or Range: N.E. P.S.G., 3 Counties Sporting Club, Galloway Small Arms Club and various IPSC clubs around the country
I wouldn't want to compile the list if its not held electronically but can the club not just use the firearms lists already provided to it and just submit it (as in every gun, everyone in the club owns) each time? Could do the same with a list of members?

They don't know/care who is actually there and what they're shooting*, they just want an approximation of rounds fired and number of lanes used.

*as long as nothing exceeds the range limits

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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:20 am 
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Mark, we already supply the list of calibres and number of rounds used when we fill in the JSP403 at the end of the detail.

I've just talked to another club who use the Catterick ranges and they haven't been told this at all so if it's a national policy why not?

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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:00 am 
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OK, so, I emailed the NRA and have just received this reply from Nic Couldrey, it is a new national requirement.


Jeff

The requirement applies across the UK. I am working with the DSA and the Safety Team in Warminster to find a mutually acceptable way to address the concerns that you and others have raised. The underlying driver is the need to reassure MoD that the firearms and ammunition used by civilians comply with the MV and ME limits for the range, typically 4500J on a constructed range.

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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:21 am 
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phaedra1106 wrote:
OK, so, I emailed the NRA and have just received this reply from Nic Couldrey, it is a new national requirement.


Jeff

The requirement applies across the UK. I am working with the DSA and the Safety Team in Warminster to find a mutually acceptable way to address the concerns that you and others have raised. The underlying driver is the need to reassure MoD that the firearms and ammunition used by civilians comply with the MV and ME limits for the range, typically 4500J on a constructed range.


You would think that this is already the case as HME is already dealt with as a separate entity.
What do the MOD think shooters are going to turn up with?
As a member of a club shooting on an MOD range I have only had to fill in a sheet on the day with firearm details.
That was about a year ago.
Maybe wishful thinking but wouldn't it be great to see the MOD/GOV realise there is a money making opportunity to be had from civvy`s on MOD ranges!


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 Post subject: Re: MOD range access.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:56 am 
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Latest update from the Northern NRA representative, no explanation why it seem that only those clubs under the Otterburn Training Area are being asked to this,

"Dear all

Whilst we are all collecting rifle info which we can submit to DIO, the NRA recognises the frustration this is causing and is trying to reach a sensible compromise position with DIO HQ Warminster.

We have been in touch with the LtCol responsible for managing with new regulations and have a meeting setup with him on the 28th July to try to agree a way forward which works for both the DIO and the NRA ( hence clubs ) .

In the meantime can I ask that you plough on collecting the data you need for OTA , and please would you refrain from raising your concerns and frustrations with local DIO colleagues.

Cheers

Guy"

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