Distance Sales Sticky

[Lancs_Oakley]

My understanding is the seller does not enter it onto your FAC until they are at their RFD and they have taken possession.

So your FAC arrives in the post, they see you have the slot and form a contract of sale at that point, part of that contract is they deliver to your chosen RFD. You pay. They take their firearm to their RFD and then sign it off their FAC at the RFD. The RFD then takes the firearm and sends it using the approved method to your RFD. The seller then returns your FAC which now has their old gun on it. You take your FAC to your RFD and collect your firearm and the contract is complete.

[Mattnall]

You are both confusing possession with ownership.

A firearm can be on more than one FAC. The person who is 'looking after' the firearm has to maintain its safety.

In the example above the seller has to maintain its safe keeping until it is deposited with the RFD, the it is the RFD-delivery driver-warehouse staff-delivery driver-RFD- and finally the buyer who has to maintain its safe keeping in turn.

It doesn't matter when the seller writes on the buyer's FAC. It can be when he receives it or if he wants to monopolise the shopkeeper's time a bit more he can do it in the shop the instant it is handed over - it doesn't matter. Obviously it should be done in a timely manner and not take ages to get the firearm in to the delivery network.

Why is it so hard to do it the way it should be done instead of arguing about loads of hypothetical what-ifs? The conditions on the FAC must be adhered to, the police will go by the guidance and I believe the guidance is now to be considered as having legal force.
Do it anyway you like but get caught doing it wrong and risk your FAC.

Yes it is a faff but all UK gun ownership has been a faff for many years now but that is the price we pay for persueing our sport and/or business.

[artiglio]

Evening Mattnall

I’ve no problem doing things in the way the guidance stipulates, in reality it boils down to a couple of royal mail special deliveries for the fac on my part, it does mean that the market for firearms has been stymied as I’m also led to believe that even placing a deposit to have a rifle held for you is outside the guidance if you don’t have a slot for the rifle.
My query was more an attempt to establish if there was a reason that the guidance/ law is written the way it is and what the objections to the previously accepted norm are. I quite agree that it would be foolhardy to risk prosecution to try and argue the point.

[Mattnall]

Firearms laws aren't the best thought out laws. But they are what we have to follow.

[James84]

Sorry to muddy the water here, but I've just read something on a dealer's website (not sure if I can post the name in here?) about buying via your RFD which states:

"Option two: purchase through your registered firearms dealer
Give us a call on XXXXXXXXXXX to reserve your gun. Then, place your order via your Registered Firearms Dealer (RFD).

Your RFD will contact us to buy the firearm or shotgun on your behalf. You pay your RFD and collect your purchase from them. Remember to take your license with you when visiting your local RFD."

I'm guessing from what I've read above that this only applies for an RFD buying from another RFD? Curious as to if this can work for private sales.

[dromia]

Any uncertainty and you should speak with your certification authority as they are the ones who interpret the law on behalf of the state, if the certification authority interpretation is disagreed with then you will need to go to court to challenge it.

It is always prudent to get your certification authorities take on it as they are the ones whose seek for compliance, unfortunately Firearms legislation is so written that interpretation ranges widely across the country and consistency is not universal by any means, stimulate this vagueness with our institutions anti gun ethos and it can be easy to fall foul when looking for interpretation.

Certification authorities do not always get it right but unless you are prepared to challenge them then their is little you can do and we are all hostage to their vagaries.

[Pippin89]

Appreciate this is an old post now but thought I would add something I spotted. The Basc link given by someone a couple of pages back for RFD states:

"It is illegal to complete a sale (accept full payment) for a firearm, Section 1
component part or accessory or shot gun to a person who cannot produce a
firearm or shot gun certificate authorising them to acquire the firearm etc. You
may only take a deposit on a purchase prior to sight of the relevant certificate
giving authority to purchase the firearm."

This suggests that you CAN take a deposit for a firearm before seeing the buyers FAC. You just cannot take payment in full.

[dromia]

This bit says otherwise surely:

"You may only take a deposit on a purchase prior to sight of the relevant certificate
giving authority to purchase the firearm."

[bradaz11]

That says you can dromia.

[ovenpaa]

I am sure there is a typo in there somewhere as I have always believed it was unlawful to accept any monies for a firearm for which the customer did not have lawful authority.