Guns seized....again

[Pinguino]

I wish I could more than just wish you a speedy recovery and a swift return to your chosen sport. I’ve read this thread a few times and felt angry each time at the callous lack of empathy of Gwent FL, to rob you of a great pastime which might just help you take your mind off your medical condition for a few hours.
Oddly enough a friend of mine recently asked me one of those silly questions – “What would you do if you won a £1m quid but only had one month to live”.
I said I’d rent accommodation at Bisley and use up all their ammo supply and not bother to clean my rifles! If Herts FL took the same approach as Gwent I guess the reality would be I’d only be able to sit at home eating cheese and wait for the devil to come get me.

I do hope you come through this Dave - best of luck

[walesdave]

Just a quick update.

1. Spoke to Gwent Polices Professional standards; nice lady, understood my complaint. Said she will ask the FEO / Inspector their reasoning behind their decisions. Can't force them to reverse the seizure but can investigate if their 'policy' goes outside of force rules, especially the potential DDA discrimination, and then take 'action' if it does. I'm 50/50 on whether I get a good outcome from this.
2. Spoke to a firearms specialist solicitor who said if I force a revocation then it could be 6K to 10K to fight in court.
3. Home Insurance Legal protection have said they won't fund a legal challenge - it's all in the policy small print!
4. Equality Advisory and Support Service have said it sounds like a clear case of Direct Discrimination against a protected characteristic - so have given me the 'template letter' to send to Gwent Police as a start of a DDA claim - but again I'd have to fund it.
5. Oncologist and local cancer charity (if you are ever affected, these people are worth their weight https://www.maggies.org/) are all disgusted with how I've been treated but not a lot they can do

Wondering if a GoFundMe is worth it to raise the legal fees?

[Polchraine]

Wondering if a GoFundMe is worth it to raise the legal fees?

Provided you can get it supported/publicised by the various orgainisations, then yes, it will be worth it. Especially now that the protection previously offered by organisations such as BASC has disappeared.

[hitchphil]

TBH I feel this case demonstrates that if you are an FAC holder you should be insured & by not being so you are allowing FLOs to then run over you & then other FAC holders too. This case looks on face value, like it would be a pretty straight forward legal challenge, but with no insurance & in the absence of assets, so no challenge this FLD will be emboldened to do the same to others.

If you have an FAC GET INSURANCE! If you can afford an FAC, rifles & ammo etc today, then you can afford insurance, If you cant sell a gun.

[walesdave]

TBH I feel this case demonstrates that if you are an FAC holder you should be insured & by not being so you are allowing FLOs to then run over you & then other FAC holders too. This case looks on face value, like it would be a pretty straight forward legal challenge, but with no insurance & in the absence of assets, so no challenge this FLD will be emboldened to do the same to others.

If you have an FAC GET INSURANCE! If you can afford an FAC, rifles & ammo etc today, then you can afford insurance, If you cant sell a gun.

Agree with you but it's one of those things that hindsight is made for.

I used to belong to a shooting organisation that supplied legal cover as part of membership and the first time I tried to use it, it was refused as they'd changed it to Third Party liability and removed the 'licensing problems' part of the cover without updating their website or telling anyone.

My home club is NSRA affiliated but affiliation doesn't include member legal insurance but neither does individual insurance.

My home insurance legal cover turns out to have a clause which prevents funding a case where property has been seized by a government department.

My professional association insurance doesn't cover personal matters (I didn't expect it to).

At least I had critical illness cover (not for a lot but enough to pay the bills for 3 months) and income protection (again just enough for the bills) and life insurance if it all goes wrong (wife and kids will be pretty well provided for).

I guess shooting insurance just wasn't high on my list.....

[walesdave]

Early morning update: Call from Gwent Police Professional standards at 8:30.

The FEO Inspector has now said the 'voluntary surrender' isn't based on just my cancer diagnosis but upon the reason I was talking to the police in the first place the day before seizure.

For Info:
- after an argument the night before between my wife and I (diagnosis related / money worries etc.- normal 'stress argument' not loud, violent, threating or anything like that), she'd texted a friend along the lines of she didn't know how she was going to handle my cancer, treatment, money, kids etc.
- following day, friend called other friend to say she 'was worried' how my wife was handling things
- second friend knows of my wife's previous mental health problems (btw: that's why this isn't my first 'surrender') tried to call her, couldn't get an answer, faceached messenger me - I don't watch fb all day so didn't see the message, second friend called police to report wife as a vulnerable missing person
- wife's phone was disconnected as she was porting number between mobile supplier; wife was at a 5 hour art class
- for about 2 hours wife was classed as misper, she then came home after the art class, we called the police they came around, explained everything, they went away satisfied the call was weell intentioned but a false misper report

So: FEO Inspector is now claiming the 'voluntary surrender' is due to tension and arguments in the home (based on my cancer treatment) and so she hasn't made a 'blanket decision' based just on my diagnosis.

She's lying.

I've attached the email trail (read bottom to top) and you can see not once is any argument or home 'stress' mentioned once. The surrender form has 'Health - safeguarding' written on it.

Outcome: it's now an 'official Professional Standards complaint' and being passed up the chain of command.

Next steps: Prof Standards lady has asked for a week or so to carryon the complaint as she's on leave - no problem from me, we all need a break. Then she'll let me know what the Prof Standards Inspector thinks of the FEO Inspectors reasoning.

GoFundMe looking likely!

[hitchphil]

TBH I feel this case demonstrates that if you are an FAC holder you should be insured & by not being so you are allowing FLOs to then run over you & then other FAC holders too. This case looks on face value, like it would be a pretty straight forward legal challenge, but with no insurance & in the absence of assets, so no challenge this FLD will be emboldened to do the same to others.

If you have an FAC GET INSURANCE! If you can afford an FAC, rifles & ammo etc today, then you can afford insurance, If you cant sell a gun.

Agree with you but it's one of those things that hindsight is made for.

I used to belong to a shooting organisation that supplied legal cover as part of membership and the first time I tried to use it, it was refused as they'd changed it to Third Party liability and removed the 'licensing problems' part of the cover without updating their website or telling anyone.

My home club is NSRA affiliated but affiliation doesn't include member legal insurance but neither does individual insurance.

My home insurance legal cover turns out to have a clause which prevents funding a case where property has been seized by a government department.

My professional association insurance doesn't cover personal matters (I didn't expect it to).

At least I had critical illness cover (not for a lot but enough to pay the bills for 3 months) and income protection (again just enough for the bills) and life insurance if it all goes wrong (wife and kids will be pretty well provided for).

I guess shooting insurance just wasn't high on my list.....

My comment wasn't really directed toward you, am afraid your horse has already bolted. But as a club secretary - to the far too many other FAC holders with no insurance cover or who expect their club to do it? when club affiliation never did & wont. Would one drive a car without insurance? nope so why drive a gun without?

Club affiliation insurance covers clubs & club officers, for club events only, not individual members. The only cover they derive is 2nd & 3rd party accident & even then only as part of a club activity - club gun blows up injuring a member; the club covered, your gun blows up & injures a fellow member next to you on the FP; the club insurance might pay out but then might seek to recover from you, a round ricochets off a surface injuring an individual in the street; the club insurance covers them. Not You. Guns at home - nothing is insured & many household insurances exclude it.

NRA & NSRA individual membership both cover legal needs as part of being an FAC holder. ~£100 pa sorted, covered, access to legal opinion & legal support, +other benefits if any want them? (equipment cover etc). However the at times uniformed, & caustic view from a few of both NRA & NSRA, influence some to not join, so shoot uninsured, but for club insurance, & imho do a disservice to shooting at large.

NSRA insurance does cover suspension / revocation - did you go look, or just quote someone else?

Gunplan also cover it ~£25 pa the cost of 3 beers & a kebab!

I would also be very candid about posting your personal circumstances here & dont assume that some FEOs can't read that, copy it, & then use it against you if they wanted to do so. You could ask if your guns can be put in RFD & your FAC revoked. That way you dont lose them, can sell them & use the funds to fight this? beware of RFD fees - they rack up & can end up being more than the value of the gun.

[phaedra1106]

Just looked at Gunplan, with the legal cover and minimal personal accident it comes out at £45.90

[MistAgain]

Just looked at Gunplan, with the legal cover and minimal personal accident it comes out at £45.90

Its a bit difficult to find out exactly what the legal cover gives you .

It does say this however , Excess of £1,000 applies to revocation of licence .
So there could be other excesses hidden .

The BASC cover (long gone) was only valid if their legal team (HA HA ! ) believed you had a 51% chance of winning .
At the time I was told by one of the Solictors clerks that another legal cover firm insisted on a 60% chance of winning .

[MistAgain]

TBH I feel this case demonstrates that if you are an FAC holder you should be insured & by not being so you are allowing FLOs to then run over you & then other FAC holders too. This case looks on face value, like it would be a pretty straight forward legal challenge, but with no insurance & in the absence of assets, so no challenge this FLD will be emboldened to do the same to others.

If you have an FAC GET INSURANCE! If you can afford an FAC, rifles & ammo etc today, then you can afford insurance, If you cant sell a gun.

Sorry , but I have to totally disagree with you .

Having some form of public liability could be said to be a good idea .

But having to pay up for insurance to protect you from someone who thinks they can rewrite laws or just make up laws is total defeatism .

National bodies are supposed to be there for their members and offer help and assistance .
And not going to fancy lunches and gladhanding their way aound .