The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Lancs_Oakley wrote:Why an op? Sounds strange to me that they go to the trouble of getting a named op for something that should be quite simple. Query their DB for anyone with >12 entries on their FAC. Sort highest first and start visiting people top down.... BAU rather than going to the trouble of a full blown operation. Strange.

I guess, on paper at least, it looks like they're doing something to tackle armed crime if it has a name and everything.

Solving crime is very hard - so soft pedalling their way over to legitimate firearm owners in the hope of catching some piffling infringement or suggesting ever more security measure looks like they're busy with the task in hand whilst avoiding the real issue. On paper though it looks like something is being done. Have there been some high up promotions / transfers into the Liverpool area recently? Perhaps someone is trying to make a name for themselves without all the bother of meaningful work.

I'm still not sure why 12 is some kind of magic number for being concerned. Whether it be one firearm or a thousand in the hands of a law-abiding shooter the result is the same - zero threat.

They should worry about the single firearms in the hands of scumbags.

“Op” can easily mean and actually does in most circumstances, denote an initiative. There is not necessarily something sinister or offensive action being undertaken. We have an “op” named for police station security. There’s an “op” for the returning of stolen property to the rightful owner and we’ve even had an op for the roll out of new smart phones...

And as for the number, the Firearms Security Handbook in section 2 uses the figure of 10 as generally requiring level 2 security. But stipulates that the number of firearms alone should not dictate the security requirements.

There is a story doing the rounds that two police officers turned up at an RFD's address in Merseyside demanding to inspect the stock .

They refused to show any ID , and when asked to leave sat in their car for over an hour .

Neither of them was in uniform .

MistAgain wrote:There is a story doing the rounds that two police officers turned up at an RFD's address in Merseyside demanding to inspect the stock .

They refused to show any ID , and when asked to leave sat in their car for over an hour .

Neither of them was in uniform .

The first obvious thing to do is ring the police! If the RFD didn't do this I suspect the story is BS.

The Police have been turning up at Merseyside RFD's.... that is a FACT (I was at the club when one of our members sat at our table got a phone call to say that the police were at his house wanting to see him as he held an RFD).

But it has been Firearms Licensing Department Staff, FLO (and one uniformed officer) who are generally on first name terms with those that are being visited.

HH1 wrote:The Police have been turning up at Merseyside RFD's.... that is a FACT (I was at the club when one of our members sat at our table got a phone call to say that the police were at his house wanting to see him as he held an RFD).

But it has been Firearms Licensing Department Staff, FLO (and one uniformed officer) who are generally on first name terms with those that are being visited.

They'll sometimes do that up here but usually give you a call, saying something like "we were visiting another RFD close-by and thought we'd pop in as we were passing; btw we're sitting in the car outside your house!"

Only ever been by one FLO I know quite well.

MistAgain wrote:There is a story doing the rounds that two police officers turned up at an RFD's address in Merseyside demanding to inspect the stock .

They refused to show any ID , and when asked to leave sat in their car for over an hour .

Neither of them was in uniform .

Cops are required to give Name, ID and Collar no. to you; In these circumstances I would Ring 999 and tell them two unidentified people have tried to gain access to your firearms. ARV should be on it's way very very quickly.

well I had a phonecall from my FEO the other day, did I know my explosives ticket is up for renewal. 'oh is it?' yeah, but I see your FAC expires next year, I'll just renew it for you for one year, then you can have them all co-terminus. 'oh, thanks very much!' are you in any time next week, be nice to drop in. 'yeah I'm free next wednesday' ok, see you then

wednesday rolled round, knocked on the door, came in, chatted for 5 minutes about the F1 I was catching up on, then said that I have a variation in atm for more 2 more 7.3 (missus shot me a look and raised an eyebrow.... two???) told feo off for mentioning numbers in front of her, he told me he doesn't deal with that anyway, but he can see I'm serious about the collection, then showed me the computer printout and asked if it all looks ok, but without my FAC a bit hard to tell. We then talked about collections as he said I had a lot of CD's in the house (I do, but he was seeing DVD's, so he might be a detective as well as FEO) and he told me how someone he went to collected pylon ceramic insulators, and showed me pics. I said I wasn't that sad, I just collect, guns, DVD's and LEGO. he said bye and left

all in all a bit of a strange visit, it almost seemed like the collection was his and he just wanted to show someone pics of it or something. anyway, no more than that, and not even wanting to see the cabinets or explosive box etc. just a 5/10 min chat. not sure if it's down to number of guns or what, but thought I'd mention it

seems to be a bit of confusion here. The conditions applied to an RFD licence do not apply to a private FAC. The RFD conditions are as below:-

Overview
Any business that manufactures, sells or transfers shotguns, firearms or ammunition, and anyone involved in the repairing, testing or proving of them, must register with the police.

In order to sell firearms, including air weapons, by way of trade or business, you must register as a firearms dealer with the local police.

You must:

complete application form 116 from your local police
return your application to your local chief officer of police with the correct fee
provide information on all places in the area where your business will be carried out
You will be required to explain the nature of your business and show that you have an understanding of firearms legislation.

Conditions
The chief officer of the police can attach any reasonable conditions to your licence, and may change these at any time with written notice.

As a registered firearms dealer, you must:

keep firearms secure
not sell firearms or ammunition to anyone under the age of 18, or anyone you believe to be drunk or unsound of mind
not sell firearms or ammunition to anyone who is not authorised to own a firearm or shotgun
not carry out your business in a place that may be a danger to the public
If you obtain new premises that are not entered in the register, you must notify the chief officer of the police as soon as possible. You must include all necessary information.

To renew your registration certificate, you must return your current certificate to the police and apply for a new certificate in the standard way. You must do this within or before 3 years from the granting of your original certificate.

You must keep a register of all firearms or ammunition transactions and you must record all transactions within 24 hours of their occurrence, in particular the quantities and descriptions of all firearms and ammunition:

manufactured - including the dates for these
purchased or acquired - including the names and addresses of the sellers or transferors and the dates of the transactions
accepted for sale, repair, test, proof, cleaning, storage, destruction or other purpose
sold or transferred - and the areas where the person’s firearm certificates where issued
in your possession for sale or transfer at the date of your last stocktake
When recording the above information you must include the names and addresses of all relevant parties, and the date these transactions occurred.

Details on the register must be kept for at least 5 years from the date of the transaction.

You must allow the police to inspect the register and your stock if requested.

If you sell, let or lend a shotgun to a holder of a visitor’s shotgun permit, you must notify the police, in writing, of the transaction within 48 hours.

The Police have the power to inspect an RFD register and stock.

We are talking about unannounced "spot checks" on private premises here.

They DO NOT have similar powers in respect of private citizens. They DO NOT have a power of entry to do so.
Of course they may REQUEST such an examination just as you, as a private citizen, MAY refuse entry if its not convenient.
You MAY however course chose to acquiesce to a visit if its convenient.

Mike

The fact that a police force feels the need to make unannounced visits on RFD's and certain FAC holders suggests that the police havel a lack of trust in regards to the shooting community .

If they visit an RFD when he is having a busy day , can he tell them to come back another time , or does he have to chase his customers out of the shop and lock up while the police are there ?

And what if the FAC holder has other commitments on the day the police arrive . Of course he can tell them to go away , but what are the odds that his file will be marked "non-cooperative" ? .

These unannounced visits are going to be rolled out across the country . Once the holders of 12 or more firearms have been visited , what next 10 , 8 , 6 ?

The only results these visits will achieve will be more delays in renewals and variations .

So how long will it be before the police start profiling shooters with some wonderful computer program ?