Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

Anything shooting related including law and procedure questions.

Moderator: dromia

Forum rules
Should your post be in Grumpy Old Men? This area is for general shooting related posts only please.
Message
Author
Mike95
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:40 pm
Home club or Range: Harrowden Rifle Club
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#11 Post by Mike95 »

I have some soft point bullets... not ammunition, unless I reload.. does a soft point bullet, when loaded, count as expanding ammunition?

Mike95
Chapuis
Posts: 1657
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:32 am
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#12 Post by Chapuis »

Mike95 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:56 pm I have some soft point bullets... not ammunition, unless I reload.. does a soft point bullet, when loaded, count as expanding ammunition?

Mike95
It makes no difference whatsoever whether it is expanding or non expanding (e.g. fmj), loaded ammunition counts towards your permitted allowance and bullets do not.

All this nonsense about expanding ammunition with regard to rifle ammunition changed back to the way it should have been all along a few years back. It's a pity that they left the latest 2021 revision of the guidance to police to the office junior to do as the poor lad or lass used a much earlier copy to amend and made a right pigs ear of the job.
User avatar
Blackstuff
Site Supporter Since 2015
Posts: 7709
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#13 Post by Blackstuff »

Mike95 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:56 pm I have some soft point bullets... not ammunition, unless I reload.. does a soft point bullet, when loaded, count as expanding ammunition?

Mike95
When all expanding bullets were S5 it didn't matter whether it was part of a complete round of ammunition or just the bullet, you had to have authority to possess it.

As previously mentioned though, bullets on their own do not count towards your total possession allowance (although there was a recent, (thankfully though not implemented) move, to try to get that to be the case, and pun intended, so was your case and primer holdings kukkuk )
DVC
User avatar
Fedaykin
Posts: 912
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:34 am
Home club or Range: Cawdor
Location: Inverness
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#14 Post by Fedaykin »

Whilst looking to be a mistake this does need to be taken up quickly with the Home Office for a correction! We know there are vindictively enthusiastic FEO who were less than happy about the legislation change on expanding ammunition who will happily use this as a way to make problems with law abiding Gun owners. Other groups like the snake oil salesman and so called "experts" at NABIS will use this as a wedge issue to try and shift the legislation the other way!
I am Arthur Frayn, and I am Zardoz.
I have lived 300 years...

I am immortal.
I present now my story,
full of mystery and intrigue,
rich in irony, and most satirical.
User avatar
Blackstuff
Site Supporter Since 2015
Posts: 7709
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#15 Post by Blackstuff »

It isn't a mistake, the 1968 Act has been updated so that the section regarding expanding ammo specifically refers to PISTOL ammunition, therefore the guidance while not clear on this, is technically correct.
DVC
User avatar
The Event
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:57 pm
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#16 Post by The Event »

Blackstuff wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:15 am It isn't a mistake, the 1968 Act has been updated so that the section regarding expanding ammo specifically refers to PISTOL ammunition, therefore the guidance while not clear on this, is technically correct.
Then paragraphs 3.40 and 3.41 make no sense as they specifically refer to the use of rifles with expanding ammunition but if the expanding ammunition is used in a rifle it isn't pistol ammunition.

3.40 However, the use of the phrase “in connection with” means that it is acceptable for
shooters to use expanding ammunition to zero their rifles with the ammunition they
will be using in the field provided it is for one or more of the four activities listed
above. These exemptions apply only to use in Great Britain, not overseas.
3.41 The possession of expanding ammunition for target shooting or any competition
use is not allowed. Applicants wishing to possess expanding ammunition for any
other purpose (for example, to zero a large calibre rifle for big game hunting
abroad) should also be refused (see also paragraphs 3.22 and 3.23). There should
be no prescribed limits set on the number of rounds of ammunition that can be
expended during zeroing, although this will need to be compatible with these
functions and consistent with the overall limits on possession
Chapuis
Posts: 1657
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:32 am
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#17 Post by Chapuis »

Blackstuff wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:15 am It isn't a mistake, the 1968 Act has been updated so that the section regarding expanding ammo specifically refers to PISTOL ammunition, therefore the guidance while not clear on this, is technically correct.
I'm in absolute agreement with you Blackstuff regarding the guidance not being clear, clarity should surely should be the whole purpose of the document.
Which amendment are you referring to?
Off the top of my head I can't think of the date when the expanding ammunition section was amended but I thought it was about three years ago, has there been another amendment recently that has been slipped in without us knowing about it?

It looks to me that the H.O. lost the argument a few years ago about expanding ammunition and finally had to relent by backtracking, however are they trying to regain ground via this latest guidance.
User avatar
Blackstuff
Site Supporter Since 2015
Posts: 7709
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#18 Post by Blackstuff »

The Event wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:57 pm
Blackstuff wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:15 am It isn't a mistake, the 1968 Act has been updated so that the section regarding expanding ammo specifically refers to PISTOL ammunition, therefore the guidance while not clear on this, is technically correct.
Then paragraphs 3.40 and 3.41 make no sense as they specifically refer to the use of rifles with expanding ammunition but if the expanding ammunition is used in a rifle it isn't pistol ammunition.

3.40 However, the use of the phrase “in connection with” means that it is acceptable for
shooters to use expanding ammunition to zero their rifles with the ammunition they
will be using in the field provided it is for one or more of the four activities listed
above. These exemptions apply only to use in Great Britain, not overseas.
3.41 The possession of expanding ammunition for target shooting or any competition
use is not allowed. Applicants wishing to possess expanding ammunition for any
other purpose (for example, to zero a large calibre rifle for big game hunting
abroad) should also be refused (see also paragraphs 3.22 and 3.23). There should
be no prescribed limits set on the number of rounds of ammunition that can be
expended during zeroing, although this will need to be compatible with these
functions and consistent with the overall limits on possession
Yep you're right there then, that definitely confuses the matter and needs changing asap!
Chapuis wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:12 am
Blackstuff wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:15 am It isn't a mistake, the 1968 Act has been updated so that the section regarding expanding ammo specifically refers to PISTOL ammunition, therefore the guidance while not clear on this, is technically correct.
I'm in absolute agreement with you Blackstuff regarding the guidance not being clear, clarity should surely should be the whole purpose of the document.
Which amendment are you referring to?
Off the top of my head I can't think of the date when the expanding ammunition section was amended but I thought it was about three years ago, has there been another amendment recently that has been slipped in without us knowing about it?

It looks to me that the H.O. lost the argument a few years ago about expanding ammunition and finally had to relent by backtracking, however are they trying to regain ground via this latest guidance.
The Policing and Crime Act 2017 brought all expanding ammo (except those calibres specifically only for pistols) from S5 to S1. AFAIK ther's been no further change to the legislation regarding expanding ammo.
DVC
User avatar
Sim G
Past Supporter
Posts: 10726
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#19 Post by Sim G »

It’s a right nucking fess! Hopefully IainWR can rattle a cage or two and get this amended. Considering that FEOs only get five days training, with little or no prior knowledge, this is a very important document that needs to be taken out of the hands of a 19 year old Admin Assistant!
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
User avatar
Fedaykin
Posts: 912
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:34 am
Home club or Range: Cawdor
Location: Inverness
Contact:

Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#20 Post by Fedaykin »

Agree with Sim G, this needs to be sorted very quickly! The Police since Plymouth are very much in a 'Confiscate first let the Courts sort it out later' mood, considering the low experience of many FEO who treat Firearms Licensing as a box ticking exercise mistakes in the guidance can have serious ramifications for law abiding gun owners!
I am Arthur Frayn, and I am Zardoz.
I have lived 300 years...

I am immortal.
I present now my story,
full of mystery and intrigue,
rich in irony, and most satirical.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 12 guests