A Disarmed Society

[Michael Sproul]

So, I thought I'd bump this thread as it's relevant in my eyes, although I'm just thinking out loud and no real response can be given....

Right, I grew up in a small town, everyone knows each other and generally crime consisted of the odd bit of fighting on a Saturday night or a bit of drunk and disorderly behaviour. Incidents were few and far between. I don't live there anymore but most of my family do.

Recently there has been a spate of burglaries and it's all over Facestalk, people are genuinely frightened and talking about taking baseball bats to bed! I have no problem with this, a persons home is his/her castle! But in the eyes of the law (as I understand it) this is illegal!! I just can't understand how we've let the hand wringers take it this far.

As I said, no real point, I just felt the need to type summit!

[Tower75]

It's illegal to own a baseball bat?

As far as I understand it, which probably means I don't, if an intruder breaks into your home, you can use "reasonable" * force, so cracking a baddie over the head with a bat seems reasonable to me when you consider last year there was about 3 fatal stabbings in which the home owner stabbed the intruder, and nothing was brought against the home owner.

* I HATE that word BTW, I consider a .303 to the chest reasonable force when confronted with one or more intruders in my home. Maybe it's me.

[Chuck]

baseball bats not illegal...yet!

Reasonable force presupposes that you KNOW what a scumbag has in mind. It is an idiot concept, no matter how it is debated...If someone breaks into your home and you beat them to a pulp what is the issue...if they had not broken in they would not be beaten up..simple to a reasonable person but impossible to see if you are a loopy liberal.

michael, it got this far because we let it. Time and again we allowed the criminal to take control, we voted in parties who did just that, we abidcated responsibility for our own safety to third parties who have no remit to protect you...and insufficient numbers to stand outside every home 24/7/365. Add in dreamland social workers and limpwristed judges bereft of reality experience and the rest is history..Society has been in decline since the mid sixties...that is about the time apartments were fitted with doors on the closes and security systems. Read any newspaper from back then, NOTHING has changed..except now YOU get screwed if you so much as look at some criminal the wrong way.

tower: pretty well what I as alluding to...if you give someone a face full of buckshot or OC spray, or a jolt from a Tazer..or even a .308 or whatever..albeit a bit big for home defence - then just who is to blame....the criminal of course....sadly common sense has long been removed from the Brit way of thinking.

Too much time is spend trying to justify why we should NOT do this instead of why we SHOULD!

[Harrier1980]

I think the baseball bats come into the 'opportunity weapon' but probably illegal as you would be asked why you have it.

I would think the number of bats in the country vastly outnumbers the amount of actual baseball players.

As a youngster I used to carry one in the car boot, but I had a ball and glove as well. ;-)

You can't protect yourself on these shores, there's always some wishy washy idiot spouting about "criminal rights"* quoted from somewhere just this morning,


"I am not wrong about using a gun in self defense being murder.
1) you can only use minimum force that must be commensurate and proportionate.
2) you might get away with using a weapon of opportunity. However a gun should be locked away.
3) if you used a gun you have either not kept it safely or have had time to go and fetch it this it is premeditated not a weapon of opportunity."

Just an example but this is what you're up against in the UK, and this was about self defense, not protecting ones property!

The minimum and proportionate argument really really fecks me off, if someone breaks into my home, where my (common law(hehe this narks her)) wife and kids sleep they're fair game IMO and I shouldn't have to worry for one second about litigation caused by my actions, they chose to enter my home.

[Michael Sproul]

I believe it becomes illegal as you've turned it into an offensive weapon, just like you can't carry one round in your car for self defense.

Tower, you can't thump someone because they're in your home, reasonable and proportionate means if they try and hit you, you can hit 'em back.

[Chuck]

I believe it becomes illegal as you've turned it into an offensive weapon, just like you can't carry one round in your car for self defense.

Tower, you can't thump someone because they're in your home, reasonable and proportionate means if they try and hit you, you can hit 'em back.

It is NOT an offensive weapon, it is a piece of sports equipment. Just about anything in your home could be reclassified if the cops so wished...It is all a load of BULL to make sure you are a victim at all times.! It's an example of the law being taken into someone elses hands as they say.

WHY should you have to wait to see what happens, they should NOT be there if you have not invited them in! WHY are we being nice to those who would do us harm?? The whole concept is ludicrous!

WHY are we being disarmed is a question - maybe THE question - we should be asking. WHY are criminals being so protected.... is it because as a nation we are being dumbed down NOT to fight back so that when the time comes when we NEED to fight we will be a pushover for any adversary government or other??

[Individual]

WHY are we being nice to those who would do us harm?? The whole concept is ludicrous!

It is a ludicrous concept, but I'm led to understand it's also essential if you are, or aspire to be, "a good Christian".

[Tower75]

I agree, Chuck.

I'm a simple person, I like things simple.

Bad guys breaks into home, this is illegal, you have, or should have a right, to defend your home and loved ones without fear of prosecution by the law, who should be on your side in the first place.

I truly cannot understand how you can be in the wrong in defending yourself?

[Steve]

if an intruder breaks into your home, you can use "reasonable" * force, so cracking a baddie over the head with a bat seems reasonable to me

The reasonable force clause is only if your life is being threatened-it cannot be used when defending your property.

Dont get me wrong though,i think you should be allowed to use whatever method you want.

[IainWR]

if an intruder breaks into your home, you can use "reasonable" * force, so cracking a baddie over the head with a bat seems reasonable to me

The reasonable force clause is only if your life is being threatened-it cannot be used when defending your property.

Dont get me wrong though,i think you should be allowed to use whatever method you want.

The law on this (case law, since the Offences Against the Person Act does not define "reasonable force") states that you are not required "to judge the degree of force to a nicety" (quoting one of the Lords of Appeal IIRC). Also, the first rule of using force is that it HAS to be SUFFICIENT. If there are two thugs and you decide that you have to engage (ie running away bravely is not an option) the force you use on the first one has to be immediately effective, otherwise you will lose the counterattack to superior numbers. I believe that the case law supports this - faced with defending life, whether your own or someone else's, pretty much anything goes. If the situation is not life-threatening (and case law indicates that when dealing with victims accused for defending themselves the courts work hard to find that the victim reasonably percieved the situation as life-threatening) then you have to be very careful how much force you use. But, "LEGAL SYSTEM WORKS AS IT SHOULD - CPS CORRECTLY DROP ACTION AGAINST 6FT BODYBUILDER WHO HIT DWARF BURGLAR WITH 9-IRON CAUSING LOTS OF PAIN AND MILD CONCUSSION" isn't much use to an editor trying to sell newspapers. So there is a perception that the law is slanted in favour of the burglar. Remember that Tony Martin shot the burglar in the back.