Which Practical Shotgun?

[Ballistol]

A bit of a departure from the norm for me on this one. Looking to pick up a shotgun, for practical/target shotgun use, so multiple types of ammo will be used along with slug.

Some of my thoughts:

1) Definitely want an auto
2) Would like to be able to mount a sight
3) Would like a high magazine capacity
4) Multi choke
4) Has to be accurate with slug

All opinions welcome, as although I am reasonably experienced with shotguns, I know almost nothing about practical/target shotgun type guns. So what are your recommendations, and why?

Thanks in advance

[Porcupine]

You have a lot of options. The most popular choice for 3-gun right now is the Benelli M2, followed by the Winchester Super X2/X3 and Remington 1100. However the FN SLP, Saiga 12, and Mossberg 930 SPX are also making headway. I've not seen the FN SLP or the SPX version of the Mossie 930 in the UK so they may be hard to get hold of. The Saiga is a viable choice with no end of things you can do to it, and the magazine is a big advantage, but it is very heavy and bulky so it depends if you are ok with that. Of the other three, I'd go with the Benelli as it's the most reliable and handles different loads best.

I think the main thing though is that, whatever you choose, get it really squared away so far as parts and accessories e.g. choke (key to accuracy), carrier, bolt release, mag tube, sights/optics, shell holder etc. Unless you get one of the purpose-built action shooting guns like the FN SLP or Mossie 930 SPX, you're going to have to install some things yourself like a picatinny rail/rifle sights, oversized bolt release, etc.

[Blackstuff]

What he said!

Don't forget PSG is split into divisions based on the function, optics, mag capacity etc of the gun. See The IPSC Shotgun Rulebook;

http://www.ukpsa.co.uk/IPSCRules13May03 ... un2012.pdf (Competitor equipment)

Putting an electronic or optical sight on the gun automatically puts you in Open class, which is a bit like Formula 1, the richest competitor usually wins. There are also fewer competitors in Open divisions, slightly more in Modified but by far the most in Standard, so if you're looking to get the most out of a competition thats the division to be in.

Benelli M2 gets my vote. 24" barrel with a Nordic Components +6 mag extension, enlarged bolt release and a welded up shell lifter plate to prevent the dreaded 'Benelli nip' :shock: and you're ready to roll!

I've won a few competitions now over far superior shooters simply because their gas gun has b*ggered up so i personally wouldn't recommend a Winchester SX3 (however this may be down the the competitors poor maintenance regime). Haven't seen many problems with the Remmy 1100 though. And i've never seen a Beretta Extrema in a competition so can't comment personally on that, although i;ve heard numerous people (including Robin128 on this site) sing their praises.

My comp gun (middle)

[Ballistol]

Thanks for the info lads, having read through the rules on the link provided, this is starting to get complicated.

I think that you are definitely right in that I'd want to shoot in standard class so am I right in thinking that I'd be looking for something with a 9 shot capacity (i.e. standard 2 + 6 shot extension + 1 in the chamber)?

Secondly, it is possible to optimise a single shotgun to compete in practical shotgun competitions and target shotgun competitions?

thanks for your patience

[Porcupine]

Thanks for the info lads, having read through the rules on the link provided, this is starting to get complicated.

I think that you are definitely right in that I'd want to shoot in standard class so am I right in thinking that I'd be looking for something with a 9 shot capacity (i.e. standard 2 + 6 shot extension + 1 in the chamber)?

Secondly, it is possible to optimise a single shotgun to compete in practical shotgun competitions and target shotgun competitions?

thanks for your patience

As I understand it, this is something of a grey area. The rules that are written down limit how many rounds you are allowed loaded before the beep. So in standard division the limit is 9 but when you hear the beep you could then load more rounds if there is room in the gun. However some matches enforce this such that you are never allowed more than 9 rounds in the gun at one time. Nobody enforces anything based on how many rounds the gun can hold.

The standard magazine capacity of the Benelli M2 is not 2, it is 5 (+1+1 = 7 i.e. 5 in the magazine, one in the chamber, and one on the feeder). I'd suggest adding a +4 extension tube from Nordic Components or another custom shop. That will give you a 9+1+1 maximim capacity. It's best to have at least 9 rounds capacity in the magazine because sometimes you have to start without a round in the chamber. When the round starts, whatever condition your gun was in when the beep went off, you could then load a full 12 rounds. Check with the RO to see how they enforce the rule, and if they do have a 'no more than 9 rounds at a time' interpretation then make sure you only put 8 in the tube and one in the chamber or you might get caught out.

^Of course, you can have a gun that works in all divisions e.g. 14 round capacity for open, but only load 9 before the beep for standard.

You can certainly use the same gun for target and practical. You can swap out the stock, sights/optics, choke etc. There's so many options, especially with a popular gun like a Benelli, and most things are plug-and-play, no need for gunsmithing or anything so it's totally viable to run in multiple divisions and disciplines with the same gun. Just make sure you re-zero every time you mess with the gun.

[Blackstuff]

Sorry for the confusion, again Porcupines advice is spot on

The magazine capacity restriction i was talking about was for box fed shotguns only, e.g. Saiga's. In an IPSC rules match there is no restriction on the total capacity of a tube fed shotgun, only on how many you can load before you start the stage. When we do practice matches at my local club we sometimes limit how many we put in the gun to 2+1 so that the people using Section 2 guns can remain competitive, but thats only when we're all feeling particularly nice, which isn't often

Just to clarify a point regarding the M2 specifically, a UK FAC M2 (short mag version) has a capacity of 4 in the magazine and one in the chamber (using 70mm carts), so you can work out what size magazine extension you want to add to it from there. Although the 'ghost loading' option as Porcupine suggests is there with an M2 (putting a extra cartridge on the shell lifter), you have to perminantly modify the bolt which invalidates the warranty, which lasts 5 years. This is the only reason i've not done it yet, but give it another year and a bit and i'm doing it! Personally i'd go for the +6 mag extension as it makes it almost flush with a 24" barrel so you're using all available space (so you'd have a 10+1 capacity). You can even go for a +7 which will stick a few inches past the muzzle and so will get scorched, but if mag capacity is more important than looks to you its an option, i'm just a tart :roll: :lol:

Oh and if you do decide on an M2 make sure you order the FAC short magazine version, as this will allow you to add whatever magazine extension you want simply by screwing it on. The long magazine ones are usually fixed at 7+1 capacity and you have to get a gunsmith to change the magazine (by either replacing the whole tube with the short mag version which you should've just bought in the first place , or by hacksawing the end off and putting the mag extension on afterwards :? ). Also be wary of the 'practical' or 'tactical' models as they may have a ported barrel, which would put you in Modified division. The short mag version also allows you to remove the mag extension so the gun has the appearance of a S2 shotgun, in case you go to a clay ground that's 'funny' about people using S1 guns. Plus it comes with a hard plastic case, rather than the cardboard box of the long mag version (there's my inner tart coming out again!).

There are a few different sighting systems available when you order it, but you usually have the choice of a standard rib with bead or a set of ghost ring sights. Some ribbed models have the receiver cut so you can add any dovetailed based sights and some of the ones with ghost rings have a picatinny rail so you can add optics that way. This is just my personal opinion but i'd go for the rib and bead version, preferably with the receiver that has the dovetail cuts in it. Practical shotgun is mainly about shooting metal plates as fast as possible, although you do get buck and slug elements too, the vast majority of targets are plates, and when it comes to this, for the average person, there's no faster sights than a plain old bead. This is why they are by far the most commonly used sighting system on the circuit. Having the dovetail receiver will allow you the option to add a red dot or whatever should you decide you need more accuracy for slug matches or TSG.

ATB

[Dangermouse]

I think that you have been given two very good answers there, I have a little to add,

Running the target shotgun events at Bisley I see no benefit to using a scope over a open sight set up. People play with Tru Glow style front and rear sights, Red dot and scopes but there are no obvious benefits over just running the gun they way that it was intended.
One thing that I do see time and time again is problems caused by people fitting saddle mounts to their guns in order to use a scope.
ie http://www.aimtech-mounts.com/saddle_st ... ting_s.htm (I do not know this company from Adam, I am sure that their mounts work as good as any etc)

It appears to me that the main action housing on a shotgun is very thin and prone to warping or getting twisted out of shape and even squashed when fitting these types of mounts. Some try to not over tighten the mounts which then leads to the things becoming loose.

There are any number of companies making Picatiney/weaver style rails which bolt onto dove tail rails, so should you be wanting to fit a scope at some point, I would recommend buying something designed to take a scope from the outset.
http://www.kwiksitecorp.com/p-328-groov ... apter.aspx

I do not think you have mentioned how much you want to spend - personally I don't think you can go wrong with a second hand Remington 1100 - the Ford Escort of the shotgun world. Parts are easy to come by and most shooters know how they work and can help you at the range should you have a problem.

Also not mentioned, and this can get political, I would recommend that you do the UKPSA Shotgun safety course - even if you do not intend on joining the UKPSA, although I suspect that it will be hard to compete in the UK without doing so. The safety course is a weekend and gives you the skills to confidently turn up at a competition and be safe in the knowledge that you have a basic understanding of how everything works, gun and rules, it may also teach you some new ways of handling your shotgun and ammunition and will introduce you to the kind of targets you will see in competitions,

Good luck,

DM

[Porcupine]

I'd echo Dangermouse on those saddle style mounts. Not ideal and for the kinds of popular tactical shotguns you'll be looking at, you'll have no problem finding a rail that sits on top of the receiver properly.



Another option is a railed fore-end if you like your optics up front.



Or a tang mount like this Burris SpeedBead (the mount attaches by means of a ring that fits between the stock and the back of the receiver, a bit like sling swivels on an AR):



Similarly, while I think a side-saddle shell carrier is a good choice (some people prefer belt-mounted clips or pouches) make sure you get one that is bomb proof. That pretty much goes for anything you attach to a shotgun. The recoil is so brutal, particularly when shooting full power slug loads, that any cheap crap you put on there is going to come loose. As Dangermouse said, make sure all screws are done up properly. Mesa Tactical make an aluminium one which I've had good experiences with.

Personally I like to use rifle sights or optics, depending on division, at least when shooting slugs. Some stages are very short range using buck or bird shot so a fiber optic bead works ok. But at the longer ranges the adjustability of rifle sights or optics helps - unless you are lucky enough to have a gun/ammo combo that shoots dead on the bead at all ranges. Even at close range, red dots and holo sights I find give quicker acquisition and particularly when moving between targets because you have a larger field of view. But this is all stuff you'll decide for yourself, I do recommend experimenting with different set-ups

[Ballistol]

Great information, and already you've stopped me from making some 1st time mistakes.

I think I'll probably head down the Benelli route, as I've already got a Benelli Supersport for clays and have been very pleased with it.

One further question I have, is are the M1, M2, M3, SBEII all drilled and tapped for rails? On the Benelli site it says all models will accept the Weaver 93M rail, but I can't see any fixing holes.

If my ticket is back from its latest trip for variation in time, I'll be looking to pick something up from the Newark show. Any suggestions who's good to deal with, and how much should I be paying?

thanks again

[Porcupine]

I believe it varies from model to model, or at least it used to - if they say they're all drilled maybe it's changed but I've definitely seen some that have not been, although mine was. Check with the seller to be sure.

On choosing a Benelli: The M1 is just an old version of of the M2, so get the latter. The main difference is the M2 has a lot less felt recoil and muzzle flip. The M3 is heavier than the M2 - the only thing you gain is the pump-action mode which sounds like a neat feature but it actually takes longer to get the gun ready to pump than it does to just rack the action. The Super Black Eagle II's main difference is accepting 3.5" shells which is only a big deal if you want to shoot steel shot for wildfowling. The M4 isn't imported to the UK as far as I know, so the M2 is the obvious choice if you ask me!