FAC Questions

[Pippin89]

Good advice from everyone above. Remember that you can have as many guns as you have good reason to own and you can safely store. Apply for everything you want, but be prepared for them to knock you back by 1 or 2. Oh and apply for moderators for all your rifles. They are useful slots for doing 1-for-1 variations down the line. 1-for-1's are free!
The other thing to remember is that FEO's will expect you to buy all the guns on your ticket within a given time. Otherwise they will take the slots away. Some FEO's say 3 months, some say a year, some say the length of the FAC (5 years). I have heard of an FEO saying 1 month but that's just ridiculous. Mine said a year which is still a stupid requirement but better than less time I guess. So also be prepared to answer the question of whether you can afford all of the guns you want, plus ammo and equipment etc. Having a budget written down wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Mattnall]

The other thing to remember is that FEO's will expect you to buy all the guns on your ticket within a given time.
Otherwise they will take the slots away. Some FEO's say 3 months, some say a year, some say the length of the FAC (5 years). I have heard of an FEO saying 1 month but that's just ridiculous. Mine said a year which is still a stupid requirement but better than less time I guess. So also be prepared to answer the question of whether you can afford all of the guns you want, plus ammo and equipment etc. Having a budget written down wouldn't be a bad thing.

Not acquiring a rifle after a few years and certainly by the expiry of the FAC is grounds for the start of enquiries into why you still want the slot. There are many legitimate reasons for not buying a rifle to fill a slot (see Guidance for examples) and if they impose limits and/or take slots away willy-nilly this should be challenged. Check para 10.14 of the Guidance, and ask any FEO/FLD that tries this why they feel the need to go against Guidance and Best Practice.

[moriraaca]

Thanks everyone, again a lot of great advices!

Get shooting as much as possible in probation period and join several clubs. If you're already participating in the type of shooting that requires each of the guns you're asking for there's no real reason to limit you to an arbitrary number

That's exactly what I'm doing :-) I've finished the probationary course with NRA in late Jan and have been busy since then: currently I'm in the process of joining 3 more clubs, I've signed myself up for 2 extra skills trainings (and did one already), and I've still managed to go to a range once myself, and will be going again as a part of NRA shooting club. So i think I'm approaching this correctly, the problem is I've heard that even though it's not a part of law and/or guidance, some FEOs will still reject more than X (e.g. 3) guns on the first FAC, just "because". One example in this thread: https://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=31494 - it's 5y old, but I've also heard NRA instructor mentioning the same 3 slots limit on the first FAC.

Mention all this to the FEO when you have a visit, things can change even at that late stage of the application process. If your reasons are agreeable you'll be able to get more of what you want.

Just try not to appear too eager and set yourself unreasonable goals, you might come across as a bit too precocious or trying to walk before you can run. Get the club probationary period out the way but try as many of the different disciplines you want rifles for as you can. Enter the postal comps or club run comps and show this to the FEO. The more evidence of the needs for everything you are asking for the better your chances are of getting them.

As I've replied above - I think I'm on the right track. Thanks for the tip about being too eager. I think my plan is reasonable - even if ambitious: I've checked prices and I should be able to buy all (7) guns in the first year (some of them possibly 2nd-hand, but that shouldn't matter), and I should easily met the guidance of using each of them at least 3 times a year (I'm pretty sure I'll use them more, at least some of them!)

Good advice from everyone above. Remember that you can have as many guns as you have good reason to own and you can safely store. Apply for everything you want, but be prepared for them to knock you back by 1 or 2. Oh and apply for moderators for all your rifles. They are useful slots for doing 1-for-1 variations down the line. 1-for-1's are free!
The other thing to remember is that FEO's will expect you to buy all the guns on your ticket within a given time. Otherwise they will take the slots away. Some FEO's say 3 months, some say a year, some say the length of the FAC (5 years). I have heard of an FEO saying 1 month but that's just ridiculous. Mine said a year which is still a stupid requirement but better than less time I guess. So also be prepared to answer the question of whether you can afford all of the guns you want, plus ammo and equipment etc. Having a budget written down wouldn't be a bad thing.

I agree, great advice! I was aware of the "moderator trick" and 1-for-1 variations, but thank you for mentioning this anyway! I've also heard about the fact that I might be expected to buy everything in a given time. I think I have this planned - I don't have the exact "budget" but I did some back-of-the envelope calculations, and while I definitely won't be able to buy all (7) guns within the first 3 months, as I've mentioned above I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do so within the first year. I'm planning to buy at least some of them as decent 2nd-hand option - they might not be "the best" but as I'm just starting I just want a reasonably reliable equipment I can start practicing with, and I'll be probably slowly exchanging most of the used ones to much better stuff during the future years.

[Pippin89]

I agree, great advice! I was aware of the "moderator trick" and 1-for-1 variations, but thank you for mentioning this anyway! I've also heard about the fact that I might be expected to buy everything in a given time. I think I have this planned - I don't have the exact "budget" but I did some back-of-the envelope calculations, and while I definitely won't be able to buy all (7) guns within the first 3 months, as I've mentioned above I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do so within the first year. I'm planning to buy at least some of them as decent 2nd-hand option - they might not be "the best" but as I'm just starting I just want a reasonably reliable equipment I can start practicing with, and I'll be probably slowly exchanging most of the used ones to much better stuff during the future years.

The fact you have given it thought is good. Shows the FEO you aren't just blindly applying for stuff.

[moriraaca]

I just had one more question. I'm in a process of joining a couple clubs, and I've stumbled upon a thing that got me a bit worried: they ask questions looking more or less like this:

• Have you ever had your membership of a Home Office approved shooting club rejected or terminated? (YES/NO)
• Have you ever had a Firearm or Shotgun Certificate revoked? (YES/NO)

Or like this:

I have NOT had an application for a firearm or shotgun certificate refused by the police or had a certificate revoked. (YES/NO)

Now to me it looks like if my FAC is refused or revoked even once I'll have problems getting involved in shooting forever with no option for redemption - I think I could still re-apply for an FAC (if it was rejected/revoked), but I might not be able to join some clubs, which could be a significant problem (if only because it makes hard to have a "good reason" to own a firearm)

I mean I understand that sometimes the refusal could be caused by something really serious and would justify permament ban from shooting (like, committing a serious offense). But as I understand it, the rejection could be caused by a small negligence (e.g. of a purely formal matter), or by something temporary (there's a recent and ongoing thread on this forum about a poor guy who had to surrender guns because of "suicide risk" connected to a cancer diagnose - the promise is he'll get them back once it's no longer the case). It seems that even in those cases the consequences are for a lifetime.

So the question is - do I understand it correctly that even single FAC refusal, possibly caused by somewhat benign reasons, has lifetime consequences? Should I refrain from applying for FAC if I have slightest doubts if I'd get one? Or did I misunderstood those questions?

[dromia]

In a rational and reasonable firearms legislation climate then the answer would be not necessarily it would be dependant on the specific circumstances as in all things it is about balancing any risk.

However with more and more certification departments seeming to adopt a absolute zero risk (impossible to achieve in anything) approach to legal firearms ownership then the answer is yes it is likely to be in effect a lifetime ban.

Until the certification departments waywardness in using their interpretation of the legislation to deter and prevent people from having certificates then this persecution will continue to escalate.

The shooting community has no national or local champions to tackle this behaviour on our behalf and the Chief Constables know this so will continue their anti legal firearms ownership policy.

They see firearms certification as poison chalice which they would like to have removed from their bailiwick.

As the grief of moving to another system is unlikely then the police's only approach is to make things so difficult for FAC and prospective holders that it just withers on the vine, less FAC holders, less firearms, less risk for plod getting slapped about when another tragedy occurs do to their unwillingness to apply and enforce the firearms law as it was intended to work.

The balance has shifted and the legal firearms legislation is now being purely applied for the benefit of the police and not the legal owners and the wider community as the legislation 'twas originally writ.

[MistAgain]

Many years ago , either Guns Review or Handgunner printed a letter from a person who claimed to be a serving police officer .

The gist of the letter was that if you could not afford to fight a refusal or revocation case in court , you should not think about taking up shooting as a hobby .
The editor added that he was satisfied that the author was a serving police officer .

Nothing much has changed since then , apart from the fact that our national bodies have really disowned us , while the police , nabis , felweg and all the other alfabet bodies are happily building themselves useless empires .

Colin Greenwood is probably turning in his grave at high speed , and its no wonder that Jan Stevenson walked away from shooting when he realised we didnt have the will to defend ourselves .

[Mattnall]

I just had one more question. I'm in a process of joining a couple clubs, and I've stumbled upon a thing that got me a bit worried: they ask questions looking more or less like this:

• Have you ever had your membership of a Home Office approved shooting club rejected or terminated? (YES/NO)
• Have you ever had a Firearm or Shotgun Certificate revoked? (YES/NO)

Or like this:

I have NOT had an application for a firearm or shotgun certificate refused by the police or had a certificate revoked. (YES/NO)

It is a condition of HO Approval that clubs ask this/these questions of all new applicants. If that is answered YES then perhaps further questions need to be asked but it is not a bar from applying to join other clubs.
LINK Para J and Note 9 refer.

[moriraaca]

Thanks Mattnall, this does clarify things.

As for the other answers, I'm not gonna lie this sounds a bit worrying but it's better to be aware of this than not - thak you.

[Pippin89]

The intention of the questions, as Mattnall says, is to invoke the asking of questions. If any are answered yes, then it will be up to the club committee to decide on whether someone is admitted or not. Of course, police have to approve the admission of a member too but will only say a flat out "no" if they are a prohibited person.