Sig Sauer P226 LBP

[dromia]

No need for FAC guns now that we have airsoft.

[joe]

Remember, there were only 60K of us that owned and shot pistols. Even other "shooters" we're prepared to see us sacrificed if it prolonged them. The CPSA actually supported the ban to a certain degree. And despite Pistol AD being a major event and that Busley hosted the IPSC World Shoot X practical pistol championships, the NRA were, well, like warm....

And even now, there are active shooters, some who post here, would not support a reintroduction of pistol shooting.

But this thread digresses...

And here the lies the problems ! Since we don't stick together not just handguns but any other area of anti gun laws that gets passed etc

I find quite amazing that we are only country in Europe
That handguns and semi auto centre fire rifles are banned !

[JS569]

Pistols were before my time and centre fire semis most definitely were- however I don't see the sense in their ban and would certainly support the re-introduction of both types of firearm as I think our licensing system is robust enough to cover applicants for the use of these platforms.

I don't shoot competitively but as a collector of classic firearms I have an interest in them and one the interests in shooting them- this is currently a valid reason to own (for example) an Enfield so why shouldn't this extend to semi's and pistols- as long as your interest/ activity is legal then I see no problems with ownership.

[Demonic69]

as long as your interest/ activity is legal then I see no problems with ownership.

Bwahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
That's not the way this country works, we've all got to feel criminalised so we're cowed easier "for our own good".
We're no longer a proud, fierce nation, we're not allowed to be. We have to be apologetic and placating to the rest of the world, sorry for educating one half and defeating the other. Our snivelling politicians have realised over the last century that it's harder to screw a country for personal gain when the people are proud and defiant (and armed) so they've made sure we're now more likely to sign a petition calling for a recount of the x-factor vote than we are to defend our rights to be treated like decent, law-abiding people doing something we enjoy.
Everyone is now a potential criminal, except the real criminals and the shady foreigners (only the shady ones), and we should thank our lucky stars that we're not arrested for thinking too loudly or being too proud of our once-great nation.

/rant

[Sim G]

I am very pleased this thread has taken a life of it's own. I shared the thread with Mike of Icon Arms and he had a few comments ref the setup cost of getting an LBP into the UK

See Below: exactly as the e-mail Mike sent to me:

Thanks for all the feedback Richard.

I have looked at the forum link that you sent to me and I have a couple of comments regarding some of the follow-up posts therein. Regarding the cost of the pistol, due to UK law we cannot import a pistol from Sig Sauer then convert it, as once any firearm has been assembled in prohibited form it retains its Section 5 prohibited status even if it complies with the technical requirements of Section 1. This means that we have to import components from Sig Sauer then assemble the pistols for the first time here in the UK as Section 1 firearms which is an expensive route: if you had to recreate the car that you currently drive by building it yourself from parts sourced from the main dealer rather than driving it off their forecourt, it would certainly cost you a great deal more.

To be completely candid, although I am always fairly dismissive about statements about the comparative cost of firearms and parts in the US, they continue to frustrate me as they are usually made by people that have absolutely no understanding of what is required to procure those items and bring them into the UK legally. They ignore the fact that unless you are a permanent or semi-permanent resident of the same state in which the FFL is located, most FFLs will not sell you a firearm or controlled component in person (they cannot even sell to a US citizen who is domiciled out of state). It is however possible to import remotely from the US and other countries (as we do at Icon Arms) but this requires an export licence. This has a cost of upwards of $375 and an export agent will be required as most manufacturers and virtually all shops do not want to deal with the bureaucracy surrounding firearms export from the US. An export licence will not be granted without first having an appropriate UK import licence in place (of which there are two types). Most US export agents levy an administration charge of 5% of the value of any purchase order and have a minimum shipping charge of $350. Firearms and parts are often subject to additional ITAR or US Department of Commerce export restrictions for which additional permissions and licences are necessary (both having additional associated costs). As well as complete firearms, components like magazines, receivers, barrels, triggers, muzzle devices and optics fall within these areas. To import firearms and pressure-bearing components into the UK, a UK import licence is required from the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills. To import a pistol (or other prohibited firearm) Home Office authority (i.e. Section 5) is required before the grant of a Specific Import Licence is considered by BIS, and Section 5 authority is very closely controlled for fairly obvious reasons. Many of these statements also overlook that travel to the US usual involves a return flight which is usually several hundred pounds from even the bucket shop carriers. Once the firearm is landed in the UK it becomes subject to import duty and VAT, the latter being levied on the total cost including shipping. The importing of firearms and components into the UK is closely monitored by the National Crime Agency (NCA, formerly known as the Serious Crime Squad) and visits to importers by their officers are common. The reality is that most individuals that make these types of uninformed comments cannot nor ever will be allowed to import firearms in the UK and whilst there are importers in the UK that charge extortionate prices for imported firearms and parts (and we all know who they are), Icon Arms like many other businesses operates on very modest margins: We only source the highest quality firearms and parts from the best suppliers worldwide rather than those of lesser quality or sourced from weaker economies. Whilst our products are typically towards the higher end of the price range in any of the sectors in which we compete, we differentiate our products on quality rather than price and they always provide value as a result.

Again, thanks for you great feedback and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

Best regards
Mike

Icon-Arms-Logo-Shadowed-Dagger-300dpi-Email-Footer
Mike Jakes
Icon Arms Limited
RFD 33/00000004041
Stathern, Leicestershire, LE14 4HW, United Kingdom


M: +44 7816 512874
T: +44 1949 861875
mike.jakes@iconarms.com
http://www.iconarms.com


I think Mike makes a fair point regarding the amount of time and effort to get a legal LBP on the UK market let alone all the R&D needed to get the pistol right. I am sure it was the same for people from Caledonian Classic Arms and Low Mills when they wanted to sell the K22 and 1911 in the UK. Without the likes of these companies we would not even have these options open to us. So really well done to all of these pioneers for getting these for us to choose from.

I'll be as candid as Mike thinks he's being. I don't believe him. He can't even get the correct agency or their nomlecuture for those that are responsible for oversight of the importation of firearms and the fact that he has latched on to the US for comparision, compounds the theory that he hasn't listened to what has been said.

Comparison has been made to with regards to the retail price in both the US and Europe. There is a correlation. And despite what he quotes, the correlation does work to a degree, right across the board. No one said because a Sig P226 rimfire sells for 600 dollars in the US, it should sell for the echanged rate of about 400 quid in the UK. That was not implied. But the correlation is, where you see the price of an item in the US or EUROPE, ignore the local currency and just view the figure.

A Volquartsen LBP sells for 1800 dollas US, 2000 pounds UK. A S&W M&P sells for 500 dollars US, 600 pounds UK. A Sig 522 or GSG Uzi. Even the Taurus LBR when marketed as the Silhouette and Hunter in the rest of the world sold for around 700 dollars in the US and around 650 pounds in the UK when they were still in production.

Assembling parts to make a complete unit? Seems the AR builders in the UK all do the same. A full custom straight pull AR, with the same or similar features costs dollar per pound what it does in the US! The figures are there, go look.

So ultimately, what does it boil down to? The Sig is cr@p? No, because it isn't. It's an expensive way to get it into the UK, yes it is, that is not disputed, but when compared to how other guns are brought to the UK, the Sig offered by ICON does not represent good value for money. And that is my point. "Modest margins", yeah, we all have modest margins, but if ICON just want to sell a couple of hundred units, then stick with their retail price of 1350 pounds for a European (single market of which we're a member) bulit firearm that retails in it's original form for 700 Euros/600 dollars. And for a real "comparison", check out the magazines for the K22/X-Trim.... 13 dollars US, 15 Euros EEC, 34 quid UK....

I've shown a number of blokes this subject. Blokes in my clubs who are avid shooters and most who own Taurus, GSG, Browning LBR/LBP and one X-trim. They were all excited by the concept of a Sig LBP, but immediately turned off at the price. So there's a bit of "pop market research", you could sell thousands probably if they fell into the price bracket of the genre. Hit for nigh on double that, then good luck. I'd love one in my cabinet, perhaps I'll wait for a seldom shot second hand one to come up in a couple of years....

[Mezzer]

I am very pleased this thread has taken a life of it's own. I shared the thread with Mike of Icon Arms and he had a few comments ref the setup cost of getting an LBP into the UK

See Below: exactly as the e-mail Mike sent to me:

Thanks for all the feedback Richard.

I have looked at the forum link that you sent to me and I have a couple of comments regarding some of the follow-up posts therein. Regarding the cost of the pistol, due to UK law we cannot import a pistol from Sig Sauer then convert it, as once any firearm has been assembled in prohibited form it retains its Section 5 prohibited status even if it complies with the technical requirements of Section 1. This means that we have to import components from Sig Sauer then assemble the pistols for the first time here in the UK as Section 1 firearms which is an expensive route: if you had to recreate the car that you currently drive by building it yourself from parts sourced from the main dealer rather than driving it off their forecourt, it would certainly cost you a great deal more.

To be completely candid, although I am always fairly dismissive about statements about the comparative cost of firearms and parts in the US, they continue to frustrate me as they are usually made by people that have absolutely no understanding of what is required to procure those items and bring them into the UK legally. They ignore the fact that unless you are a permanent or semi-permanent resident of the same state in which the FFL is located, most FFLs will not sell you a firearm or controlled component in person (they cannot even sell to a US citizen who is domiciled out of state). It is however possible to import remotely from the US and other countries (as we do at Icon Arms) but this requires an export licence. This has a cost of upwards of $375 and an export agent will be required as most manufacturers and virtually all shops do not want to deal with the bureaucracy surrounding firearms export from the US. An export licence will not be granted without first having an appropriate UK import licence in place (of which there are two types). Most US export agents levy an administration charge of 5% of the value of any purchase order and have a minimum shipping charge of $350. Firearms and parts are often subject to additional ITAR or US Department of Commerce export restrictions for which additional permissions and licences are necessary (both having additional associated costs). As well as complete firearms, components like magazines, receivers, barrels, triggers, muzzle devices and optics fall within these areas. To import firearms and pressure-bearing components into the UK, a UK import licence is required from the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills. To import a pistol (or other prohibited firearm) Home Office authority (i.e. Section 5) is required before the grant of a Specific Import Licence is considered by BIS, and Section 5 authority is very closely controlled for fairly obvious reasons. Many of these statements also overlook that travel to the US usual involves a return flight which is usually several hundred pounds from even the bucket shop carriers. Once the firearm is landed in the UK it becomes subject to import duty and VAT, the latter being levied on the total cost including shipping. The importing of firearms and components into the UK is closely monitored by the National Crime Agency (NCA, formerly known as the Serious Crime Squad) and visits to importers by their officers are common. The reality is that most individuals that make these types of uninformed comments cannot nor ever will be allowed to import firearms in the UK and whilst there are importers in the UK that charge extortionate prices for imported firearms and parts (and we all know who they are), Icon Arms like many other businesses operates on very modest margins: We only source the highest quality firearms and parts from the best suppliers worldwide rather than those of lesser quality or sourced from weaker economies. Whilst our products are typically towards the higher end of the price range in any of the sectors in which we compete, we differentiate our products on quality rather than price and they always provide value as a result.

Again, thanks for you great feedback and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

Best regards
Mike

Icon-Arms-Logo-Shadowed-Dagger-300dpi-Email-Footer
Mike Jakes
Icon Arms Limited
RFD 33/00000004041
Stathern, Leicestershire, LE14 4HW, United Kingdom


M: +44 7816 512874
T: +44 1949 861875
mike.jakes@iconarms.com
http://www.iconarms.com


I think Mike makes a fair point regarding the amount of time and effort to get a legal LBP on the UK market let alone all the R&D needed to get the pistol right. I am sure it was the same for people from Caledonian Classic Arms and Low Mills when they wanted to sell the K22 and 1911 in the UK. Without the likes of these companies we would not even have these options open to us. So really well done to all of these pioneers for getting these for us to choose from.

I'll be as candid as Mike thinks he's being. I don't believe him. He can't even get the correct agency or their nomlecuture for those that are responsible for oversight of the importation of firearms and the fact that he has latched on to the US for comparision, compounds the theory that he hasn't listened to what has been said.

Comparison has been made to with regards to the retail price in both the US and Europe. There is a correlation. And despite what he quotes, the correlation does work to a degree, right across the board. No one said because a Sig P226 rimfire sells for 600 dollars in the US, it should sell for the echanged rate of about 400 quid in the UK. That was not implied. But the correlation is, where you see the price of an item in the US or EUROPE, ignore the local currency and just view the figure.

A Volquartsen LBP sells for 1800 dollas US, 2000 pounds UK. A S&W M&P sells for 500 dollars US, 600 pounds UK. A Sig 522 or GSG Uzi. Even the Taurus LBR when marketed as the Silhouette and Hunter in the rest of the world sold for around 700 dollars in the US and around 650 pounds in the UK when they were still in production.

Assembling parts to make a complete unit? Seems the AR builders in the UK all do the same. A full custom straight pull AR, with the same or similar features costs dollar per pound what it does in the US! The figures are there, go look.

So ultimately, what does it boil down to? The Sig is cr@p? No, because it isn't. It's an expensive way to get it into the UK, yes it is, that is not disputed, but when compared to how other guns are brought to the UK, the Sig offered by ICON does not represent good value for money. And that is my point. "Modest margins", yeah, we all have modest margins, but if ICON just want to sell a couple of hundred units, then stick with their retail price of 1350 pounds for a European (single market of which we're a member) bulit firearm that retails in it's original form for 700 Euros/600 dollars. And for a real "comparison", check out the magazines for the K22/X-Trim.... 13 dollars US, 15 Euros EEC, 34 quid UK....

I've shown a number of blokes this subject. Blokes in my clubs who are avid shooters and most who own Taurus, GSG, Browning LBR/LBP and one X-trim. They were all excited by the concept of a Sig LBP, but immediately turned off at the price. So there's a bit of "pop market research", you could sell thousands probably if they fell into the price bracket of the genre. Hit for nigh on double that, then good luck. I'd love one in my cabinet, perhaps I'll wait for a seldom shot second hand one to come up in a couple of years....

+1

I don't believe him either.

Mezzer

[safetyfirst]

Having spoke at length to Scott at Caledonian, Paul at Lantac and Mike at icon, I believe they've put a lot of effort into their products and aren't making amazing margins on them. It's NOT about price comparisons in terms of retail units or import costs, it's the VAST number of days of time taken to get them to market in the UK with a very very limited market to go at. Most of them are fair prices.

Lantac are expensive due to to British manufacturing costs and very high standards of engineering, k22's are priced very well due to Eastern European origin, these sigs I'm sure are priced reasonably when you look at the margins but they're still just too much money for the market I think.

Still, if you're rich it's ok. You can buy one.

[Sim G]

Still, if you're rich it's ok. You can buy one.

Which is the shame of it. A well presented item with the pricing of the genre could see 1000's of these Sigs being sold. I was once told that there were 5.5K Taurus' on FACs in the UK. At at price that that appears unfair or just plainly not value for money, a couple of hundred may very well be the ceiling of this model. If you have to have one at any cost, grab it, I don't see it being around for long.

[LDC1982]

What I don't understand is why do icon get them from the states don't sig have their main manufacturing facility in Germany. Wouldn't it be cheaper to source the parts from there?

[joe]

Still, if you're rich it's ok. You can buy one.

Which is the shame of it. A well presented item with the pricing of the genre could see 1000's of these Sigs being sold. I was once told that there were 5.5K Taurus' on FACs in the UK. At at price that that appears unfair or just plainly not value for money, a couple of hundred may very well be the ceiling of this model. If you have to have one at any cost, grab it, I don't see it being around for long.

what about the low mill ranges 1911 .22lr they are over 1k and they are still selling ! they have been around for a while! granted the price does seem to bit steep! then again look sgc lever release 9mm AR he wants nealy 2k now !
did someone say here, that Icon arms might do a beretta lbp as well ?