Firearm acquisition without a FAC upto date renewal

[Mauserbill]

Hello
Received the following response from my FEO regarding purchase of a firearm with out of date FAC but letter of authority extension.
Your letter of extension acts as your certificate with the same conditions.
A Temporary permit only allows possession and not to acquire.
Hope this helps and kind regards.

However when I contacted the RFD dealer regarding a purchase I received the following email response.
If you have a letter from the police extending your certificate. you can purchase a gun with that letter. However, In Kent they kindly request that you don't as it can affect the renewal and require a reprint of your certificate. That is what I was told by my firearms officer.

O`well I think that I will call it a day on that particular sale and wait for my new FAC and another suitable firearm to turn up.

[David TS]

I am in a similar position.

FAC original expiry 121121. Renewal submitted 8+ weeks prior to expiry. Extension letter received, new expiry 070122.

You are only required to return your FAC with a variation, not renewal, so I still have my certificate.

I have already, perfectly legally, bought ammo since 121121, on production of my FAC plus the letter.

I also have four open slots to acquire firearms, which I have requested are carried across to my renewing certificate.

I could legally fill any of those in my current circumstances - I have an in force FAC with an expiry date of 070122, due to Sect 28B of FA 1968.

As to the Kent firearms licensing comments above, that sounds like laziness! Were I to fill one of my slots now (which I have no plans to as the right rifles have not come up), I would send off notification to my force same day, with a note of apology in case they had sent the renewal out. If they had already sent the new FAC out, it wouldn't matter, since all variations are filled same way - you acquire the slot first on a reissued certificate, then fill it.

Before anyone points out I only have five days until my extension expires, I am aware of that, matters are in hand

[Graham M]

I bought a shotgun on my extension letter and the RFD was quite happy to do it. However when I went over to see another dealer last year he reckoned he wouldn't have sold it to me as my ticket was out of date. No one out there actually seems to know what the hell the real truth is.

[Sim G]

Thing is Graham, I’m afraid the truth of it is the primary legislation. A lot of certificate holders and RFDs for that matter, don’t even have the slightest grasp of the law. You can see that by some of the questions that are asked on this and other forums.

And as for the knowledge of the average FEO/FIO, we’ve also seen anecdotally what that’s like!!

[Christel]

Law aside, I reckon it is all down to the local firearms department and what one has been told as an RFD. Having come across this situation a few times, we have decided to not enter anything on a lapsed certificate based on what we have been told by our local firearms department. I know I am repeating myself :)

[Christel]

SimG, yup to what you said, there is no little black book of how to be an RFD. I did actually find a document which detailed how to be an RFD, it was more of an overview really, might have been issued by Kent or Hampshire, not sure.
So...our RFD cert at next renewal will hopefully not be denied, hence we work with the local firearms department and if they tell us that it is best, despite what the law says, that we at the moment do not enter anything onto a lapsed cert for whatever reason then so be it. Sec7, no we do not take guns outside of the county because that is what we have been told.

One could argue, take them to court...throw the law at them...I haven't got the money for that. We know that increasingly that is the position of our national bodies.

[David TS]

A lot of certificate holders don’t even have the slightest grasp of the law. You can see that by some of the questions that are asked on this and other forums.

And as for the knowledge of the average FEO/FIO, we’ve also seen anecdotally what that’s like!!

I've edited out the RFD bit, but as for certificate holders and FEO's (or FLA's) not having the slightest grasp of the law, I am not sure which irritates me most.

You can guarantee when there is a thread relating to firearms law (or even worse, on Facebook), the bar room lawyers wade in with opinions, which much of the time is what appears to be, at best, based on guesswork, and inevitably simply wrong (the shooting within 50ft of the centre of a highway chestnut being one of the worst).

What is most irritating is that the unsuspecting may take that advice as gospel, whereas in many cases it is just tosh!

[Pippin89]

However, In Kent they kindly request that you don't as it can affect the renewal and require a reprint of your certificate. That is what I was told by my firearms officer.

Reading through the comments this was my concern over the process. Your renewal obviously listed the firearms you currently have. So the RFD enters it onto your old certificate. Then your renewed certificate is printed and doesn't have the new one on there. Do you go back to the RFD and get them to enter it onto your new cert too? That could open a whole other can of worms.... And yes you would have notified them but I would seriously doubt they have a system in place to update a renewal when a new firearm is purchased.

[Sim G]

Ultimately, the law trumps policy every single day of the week! If policy breaches some part of legislation, that requires challenging. That doesn’t have to be done in an adversarial fashion, but a, “I understand what you have said but, that contravenes section blah of blah blah Act…” That means as someone whose hobby or livelihood is governed by legislation that can have severe penalties, must have a working knowledge of what the requirements are.

[Sim G]

Reading through the comments this was my concern over the process. Your renewal obviously listed the firearms you currently have. So the RFD enters it onto your old certificate. Then your renewed certificate is printed and doesn't have the new one on there. Do you go back to the RFD and get them to enter it onto your new cert too? That could open a whole other can of worms.... And yes you would have notified them but I would seriously doubt they have a system in place to update a renewal when a new firearm is purchased.

This really isn’t a pop at you, I know that you haven’t had a certificate for long, but this illustrates my point.

What guns you you hold is noted on the National Firearms Licensing Management System. You buy a firearm and when you inform the police, that firearm is allocated to you and the person who has it before hand, is removed from their database entry. Them informing the Police as well as you, should ensure mistakes are minimum. Your certificate is printed from the details held on this system.

Being written on a certificate is not the definitive list from which your renewed certificate is generated from.

Going back to an RFD to have him rewrite an already entered firearm on a previous certificate you can see would be incorrect. The position Kent is no doubt coming from is when renewals are administered the file is sent to the FIO with a printed sheet from the NFMLS that will detail what you hold. They physically check your guns against this list. If in the meantime you’ve added another after that list was printed, it knocks stuff out of kilter. The FIO might actually have your new certificate in possession to be passed on to you during his visit. That is when it would need a reprint.

But the fact is, an extension is the continuation of the certificate in its original form. Additions are lawful and are only written on a certificate once.

It’s also worth mentioning that the National FIO course is only five days long. FIOs don’t know everything which is why one needs your own skills base and adopt an attitude of cooperation. This also includes not blindly following policy but challenging where required, in a constructive manner.