just a thought or a technicality

[Dave 101]

If a black powder muzzle loading rifle is capable and its legal to fire a single projectile and its held on a FAC and a BP muzzle loading musket is held on a SGC it would also fire a single projectile namely a patched ball but abreach loading shotgun section 2 would require a FAC to shoot a single projectile namely a slug in a cartridge , then what if a BP shotgun was to fire a single projectile namely a patched ball , where does that fall in legal licensing terms ?
Just a brain teaser .

Dave

[dromia]

If you have a muzzle loading musket on your shotgun certificate then it is a shot gun and should only fire shot. if you fire ball then it should be on your FAC.

[Sandgroper]

Interesting thread about this subject - http://www.mlagb.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB ... 1180682940

This was discussed with the Home Office at the time as a result of some very stupid attempts by one of the Midlands Constabularies trying to attain a prosecution on the grounds that a smoothbore musket loaded with ball constituted a ‘round of ammunition’ and needed a FAC although unloaded or loaded with shot it was subject to SGC. The Home Office told them to behave and we have had no trouble since. You are probably right about not being legally confined to an approved range if shooting a solid ball but this is a matter to be treated with extreme caution and could well upset the agreements we reached. 12 Bore balls will range a good thousand yards from a musket under certain conditions and the implications for public safety are obvious.

[dromia]

Personally I don't risk it. I have my smooth bores on my FAC.

[Sandgroper]

This is quite fascinating. The FAC requirement is based around the number and size of shot in a SG cartridge. When does loose powder and ball become S1 ammunition?

Judging by this thread - http://www.mlagb.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB ... 1310937703 Dromia is right to play it safe and to have his smooth bores on his FAC - just in case. This seems a wise course as from the above thread, the opinion is it allowed because it isn't specifically forbidden.

The use of a smoothbore muzzle loading long arm, held on a SGC, with ball on an approved range is permitted BECAUSE IT IS NOT FORBIDDEN.

If this is pushed too far into the realms of officialdom with demands that they put it clearly in writing that it IS permitted then they will reconsider the whole position and you will wind up with some jobsworth causing additional legislation which will not clarify the situation but simply ban it and then we will all have lost out.

Be patient about this, there are people who are working on the Fife police.

If you wish to push this more yourself, I suggest that you write to the Chief Constable of Fife and demand that he produce for you, chapter and verse, EXACTLY, where this is forbidden citing which sections of the Firearms Acts forbid it.

[Ovenpaa]

Original smooth bore ML's are oddities. A friend used to own a Brown Bess, it was used with shot and ball and when he got bored it was taken off ticket and sat over the fireplace until he got the urge to do something (legally) with it again.

[meles meles]

... allowed because it isn't specifically forbidden.

This is the fundamental tenet of English law (mainly Saxon in origin), as opposed to the case in Europe (and elsewhere) where law is based on the Roman concept of permissive law.

In short:

In England anything is legal unless it is specifically forbidden.

In partibus indifelis, everything is illegal unless specific permission is given.


Of course, our politicians are trying stealthily to change that underlying concept.

[Sim G]

Of course, our politicians are trying stealthily to change that underlying concept.

And that's why the ba$tards need reminding of it at every turn!! :cool2:

[IainWR]

Two vaguely legal comments:

1. Scots Law is different. I haven't studied it so all I can say is that my Law 101 course told me it was based on French and thus ultimately Roman law so don't go there (bit difficult when you were born in Aberdeen and your elderly parents still live there).

2. It is very easy to stand the "everything permitted unless prohibited" maxim on its head. The best example is the Aviation Act (1925?) which I am told opens with the words:

"1. An aircraft shall not fly unless ..." and the rest of the Act is the myriad exemptions that allow you to get airborne under various levels of control.

Iain