Self-loading Guns of Shot

[AHPP]

From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:

Rifle noun

1 a : a shoulder weapon with a rifled bore

LBPs and LBRs are obviously not 'shoulder weapons'. Every law needs interpreting but if you went to court and said an LBR was a rifle and therefore it was ok for you to lend it to your friend at a club, you'd lose. Unless of course it is fitted with a shoulder stock - which some clubs have done.

Dictionary doesn't matter. 300mm/600mm does matter.
I say I'd win. No defeatism please.

[Porcupine]

Dictionary doesn't matter. 300mm/600mm does matter.
I say I'd win. No defeatism please.

Why does 300mm/600mm matter? Nobody is saying LBPs or LBRs are section 5 - obviously they do pass the size limits laid down in 199/7. But the legislation governing the possession of firearms by those who do not hold those firearms on their FAC, under the gun club exemption, specifies only that they may possess rifles and muzzle loading pistols (you can read it here). So for this exemption to apply they must not only be legal, but also 'rifles' (or muzzle loading pistols). Nowhere in law (or a dictionary) is a rifle defined as any gun, or even any gun with a rifled bore, that meets the 300mm/600m test.

If a term is not defined in law, we and the courts must look to dictionaries and common usage. Every dictionary, or at least the great majority of them, will define a rifle as a firearm with a rifled bore designed to be fired from the shoulder. This is also the meaning in common usage. If someone has a handgun with no buttstock and a rifle with a buttstock and I ask them to hand me the rifle, we all know exactly which one I am referring to. If I said to someone "Look at this rifle," and then presented them with a handgun, they would look confused and say "But that's not a rifle." Indeed the proof of this is internal to the law: If LBPs and LBRs are legally 'rifles' then lawmakers would have had no need to specify rifles and muzzle loading pistols, since the latter would have been covered by the former.

And then there's original intent - what was the intention of lawmakers in writing that law the way they did? If they simply wanted to apply the exemption to all legal firearms, they could have done so by just saying 'firearms' or 'firearms to which section 1 of this act applies'. But they did not, they specified only rifles and muzzle loading pistols, even though other types of firearm like canons, shotguns, muskets, long-barreled handguns etc were and are legal. That suggests a clear intent to exclude these other varieties of firearm from the exemption and counts against any linguistic gymnastics hoping to define a handgun as a rifle.

[AHPP]

Rifled bore, 300mm/600mm. Enough of a rifle for me.
It's the lawmakers that came up with all the micromanaging definitions. Play them at their own game and beat them (nothing smarts more).


I'm not going to argue minutiae any more. Suffice to say my cup is half full and fortune favours the bold.

[Dangermouse]

On the matter of Sec 1 shotguns and getting into the sport of practical or target shotgun, it is possible to have a go with a section 2 (without slug) and get a very good idea if it is for you or not. The only difference is of course the size of the magazine/tube.
On the other hand, for the person interested in shooting LBP, it is a stupid situation that they can not try before they buy. In my opinion it makes a mockery of the FAC process if you can get permission to purchase a LBP on the grounds of "I like the looks of that".

On the matter of what can and can not be handled and shot, I am aware of one club which has a Sec1 shotgun for use by it's members. The FET for that area are interpreting the legislation differently to most others, including Surrey FET where Bisley is.
(Or at least that is how it was under the old FET Boss)

DM

[Porcupine]

Rifled bore, 300mm/600mm. Enough of a rifle for me.
It's the lawmakers that came up with all the micromanaging definitions. Play them at their own game and beat them (nothing smarts more).


I'm not going to argue minutiae any more. Suffice to say my cup is half full and fortune favours the bold.

Take it to court then. I guarantee you'll lose but more power to you for trying.